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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Official Game 18 Thread: Toledo
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FJC31
1/18/2023 7:42 AM
potstirred wrote:expand_more
How hard is it to pass the ball inside? Wilson can’t be stopped and we can’t get the ball to him . I think I will pass out if we ever use a bounce pass to him. Clayton looks lost. Wiz should play only if we are up 20. AJ Brown is pressing. Baker/ Hunter should come off the bench. We need a true point guard that isn’t going to be a turn over machine and can get guys good looks. I wouldn’t mind a starting lineup of
Sheldon
AJ Brown
James
Roderick
Wilson
Bring Miles Brown, clayton , Baker/Hunter, off the bench. If Clayton doesn’t want to be engaged get Hadaway to take his minutes.
Define their roles because right now it looks like Wilson is the only one that knows
I do think Hadaway and James should be considered more to start at this point. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

Interesting stats on Clayton — he’s tossed up 69 3PA (1 less than Miles) to just 52 2PA on the season. He’s only making 35% of his 3PA, meanwhile he’s made 64% of his 2PA.

Clayton has scored in double-figures seven times this season. In five of those games, he’s shot 33% or less from 3 and in three of those five games; he attempted more 3’s than 2’s. So, even in his best scoring games, most of Clayton’s damage has come from inside the arc or at the line when he went 9/9 against Delaware.

Yet his first instinct is to fire away from 3. Someone on the staff needs to work with him on not prioritizing 3PA’s because he’s not nearly effective enough to be shooting more 3’s than 2’s on the season. Feels like an easy coaching fix that would result in consistent and better output. Or maybe he’s not listening, which is why his minutes have dropped.
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ohiocatfan1
1/18/2023 7:43 AM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
I want to make this perfectly clear when I say everyone on this team is awful tonight. However, since this has been a big discussion in recent weeks, I want to show you a good example of +/-with the Whiz.

He was on the court twice in the first half.

First Whiz appearance

15:50-12:56

Ohio was -11 on the court

Second Whiz appearance

7:36-5:53

Ohio was -1 on the court

First half with the Whiz out there…Ohio was outscored by 12 points. Again, let me be clear when I say this entire team was awful tonight. However, this is what happens when the Whiz touches the floor. He provides nothing and it’s 4 against 5. You are better off sticking a LaFerla twin out there over the Whiz. And if you don’t know who the LeFerla twins are…google it. I just don’t understand how the Whiz is on a division-one basketball roster.

It’s incredible how badly Boals whiffed with the Whiz and Baker. And the jury is still very much out on Hunter.

Update: Second half

Third Whiz appearance

9:22-6:35

Ohio was -3 on the court

Final+\- damage for the Whiz was -15 (9 total minutes). Plus, one moving screen and a trip over your own feet travel.

For the first time all year, Boals did not sub Whiz at the first break in the second half for Wilson. Not sure how much more Boals can take of this. Someone check with Mason McMurray and see if he needs a teammate.
So far Whiz is a total whiff. He is completely out of position on every defensive possession.
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spongeBOB CATpants
1/18/2023 8:50 AM
At this point I want Hadaway to play all of Wiz's minutes. I get Hadaway hasn't been great but I think he has much more projectability than Wiz, especially as a true frosh. If we are going to take on a project, I'd 1000% want the Hadaway Project instead of The Wiz. The key difference, Hadaway is an athlete and Wiz is just tall.

Elmore James looked solid, still a little reckless at times but, again, he's an athlete. He had a really great finish on an and one where he took contact and was athletic enough to get the shot up high off the glass.

I'm not even close to being ready to punt on this season. We've looked bad against good teams but still have plenty of games to get the ship turned around.

We need to start seeing some improvement, I'm not sure we have really improved much since game 1 of the season.
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spongeBOB CATpants
1/18/2023 8:54 AM
FJC31 wrote:expand_more
How hard is it to pass the ball inside? Wilson can’t be stopped and we can’t get the ball to him . I think I will pass out if we ever use a bounce pass to him. Clayton looks lost. Wiz should play only if we are up 20. AJ Brown is pressing. Baker/ Hunter should come off the bench. We need a true point guard that isn’t going to be a turn over machine and can get guys good looks. I wouldn’t mind a starting lineup of
Sheldon
AJ Brown
James
Roderick
Wilson
Bring Miles Brown, clayton , Baker/Hunter, off the bench. If Clayton doesn’t want to be engaged get Hadaway to take his minutes.
Define their roles because right now it looks like Wilson is the only one that knows
I do think Hadaway and James should be considered more to start at this point. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

Interesting stats on Clayton — he’s tossed up 69 3PA (1 less than Miles) to just 52 2PA on the season. He’s only making 35% of his 3PA, meanwhile he’s made 64% of his 2PA.

Clayton has scored in double-figures seven times this season. In five of those games, he’s shot 33% or less from 3 and in three of those five games; he attempted more 3’s than 2’s. So, even in his best scoring games, most of Clayton’s damage has come from inside the arc or at the line when he went 9/9 against Delaware.

Yet his first instinct is to fire away from 3. Someone on the staff needs to work with him on not prioritizing 3PA’s because he’s not nearly effective enough to be shooting more 3’s than 2’s on the season. Feels like an easy coaching fix that would result in consistent and better output. Or maybe he’s not listening, which is why his minutes have dropped.
I'm sure the staff is aware of this and I'm sure they work on this every day in practice. I think he needs a go-to move off the dribble when he gets the ball outside the arch. I imagine opponents want to close-out hard on him knowing he's a threat from 3 so the way to counter that is to take his man off the dribble to get them out of position.
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bobcat28
1/18/2023 8:59 AM
The level of talent on our team compared to toledo isn't close right now. Other than Dwight would anyone on our team even crack their top 8 rotation?
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71 BOBCAT
1/18/2023 9:57 AM
Wiz was given an opportunity here and was unable to take advantage of his size.
Can you say D2 next year?





GO BOBCATS
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FJC31
1/18/2023 10:10 AM
spongeBOB CATpants wrote:expand_more
How hard is it to pass the ball inside? Wilson can’t be stopped and we can’t get the ball to him . I think I will pass out if we ever use a bounce pass to him. Clayton looks lost. Wiz should play only if we are up 20. AJ Brown is pressing. Baker/ Hunter should come off the bench. We need a true point guard that isn’t going to be a turn over machine and can get guys good looks. I wouldn’t mind a starting lineup of
Sheldon
AJ Brown
James
Roderick
Wilson
Bring Miles Brown, clayton , Baker/Hunter, off the bench. If Clayton doesn’t want to be engaged get Hadaway to take his minutes.
Define their roles because right now it looks like Wilson is the only one that knows
I do think Hadaway and James should be considered more to start at this point. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

Interesting stats on Clayton — he’s tossed up 69 3PA (1 less than Miles) to just 52 2PA on the season. He’s only making 35% of his 3PA, meanwhile he’s made 64% of his 2PA.

Clayton has scored in double-figures seven times this season. In five of those games, he’s shot 33% or less from 3 and in three of those five games; he attempted more 3’s than 2’s. So, even in his best scoring games, most of Clayton’s damage has come from inside the arc or at the line when he went 9/9 against Delaware.

Yet his first instinct is to fire away from 3. Someone on the staff needs to work with him on not prioritizing 3PA’s because he’s not nearly effective enough to be shooting more 3’s than 2’s on the season. Feels like an easy coaching fix that would result in consistent and better output. Or maybe he’s not listening, which is why his minutes have dropped.
I'm sure the staff is aware of this and I'm sure they work on this every day in practice. I think he needs a go-to move off the dribble when he gets the ball outside the arch. I imagine opponents want to close-out hard on him knowing he's a threat from 3 so the way to counter that is to take his man off the dribble to get them out of position.
He definitely needs a move off the dribble, but he also needs to spend less time hovering around the arc. If the staff is aware of this, then it needs to change. He’s not helping himself or the team on this current trajectory.

I’d put Clayton up there with Elmore as being overly physically imposing for a young age. The more Clayton can utilize his body like BVP with his back against the basket, the better.
Last Edited: 1/18/2023 10:14:42 AM by FJC31
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spongeBOB CATpants
1/18/2023 10:16 AM
FJC31 wrote:expand_more
How hard is it to pass the ball inside? Wilson can’t be stopped and we can’t get the ball to him . I think I will pass out if we ever use a bounce pass to him. Clayton looks lost. Wiz should play only if we are up 20. AJ Brown is pressing. Baker/ Hunter should come off the bench. We need a true point guard that isn’t going to be a turn over machine and can get guys good looks. I wouldn’t mind a starting lineup of
Sheldon
AJ Brown
James
Roderick
Wilson
Bring Miles Brown, clayton , Baker/Hunter, off the bench. If Clayton doesn’t want to be engaged get Hadaway to take his minutes.
Define their roles because right now it looks like Wilson is the only one that knows
I do think Hadaway and James should be considered more to start at this point. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

Interesting stats on Clayton — he’s tossed up 69 3PA (1 less than Miles) to just 52 2PA on the season. He’s only making 35% of his 3PA, meanwhile he’s made 64% of his 2PA.

Clayton has scored in double-figures seven times this season. In five of those games, he’s shot 33% or less from 3 and in three of those five games; he attempted more 3’s than 2’s. So, even in his best scoring games, most of Clayton’s damage has come from inside the arc or at the line when he went 9/9 against Delaware.

Yet his first instinct is to fire away from 3. Someone on the staff needs to work with him on not prioritizing 3PA’s because he’s not nearly effective enough to be shooting more 3’s than 2’s on the season. Feels like an easy coaching fix that would result in consistent and better output. Or maybe he’s not listening, which is why his minutes have dropped.
I'm sure the staff is aware of this and I'm sure they work on this every day in practice. I think he needs a go-to move off the dribble when he gets the ball outside the arch. I imagine opponents want to close-out hard on him knowing he's a threat from 3 so the way to counter that is to take his man off the dribble to get them out of position.
He definitely needs a move off the dribble, but he also needs to spend less time hovering around the arc. If the staff is aware of this, then it it needs to change. He’s not helping himself or the team on this current trajectory.

I’d put Clayton up there with Elmore as being overly physically imposing for a young age. The more Clayton can utilize his body like BVP with his back against the basket, the better.
I don't disagree, I'd like to see him with some touches down low. I'm wondering if he just simply isn't good with his back to the hoop. I know his stats would suggest otherwise but there's other ways to score in the paint other than a posting up.
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OhioCatFan
1/18/2023 10:42 AM
Two comments about things said in this thread:

1. Wiz is not the reason that the season has not lived up to pre-season BA hype. He is a project, but we could still have him on the court and have a much better record if other parts of the machine were operating at a higher level.

2. Saul was not a bad coach. He had some incredibly bad luck with the injury to Tony that probably cost us the MAC Championship that year. He also had some other unfortunate injuries his last year. In 14 years in D1 and now D2 he has an overall record of .610 winning percentage, and at his current digs he's .759. Some on here were saying that he couldn't recruit D1 talent. Didn't he recruit one J Preston? I think it's time to stop the Saul bashing.
Last Edited: 1/18/2023 10:45:00 AM by OhioCatFan
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MonroeClassmate
1/18/2023 11:58 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
If it is one thing I have learned in my 20 years on BobcatAttack, it is that we let the schedule dictate how much we overreact. We flip out and hate everything after a tough stretch of schedule, then we marvel about all the progress and positivity after a weaker schedule / home games. Now is not the time to evaluate the season...this portion went about as expected, maybe a touch worse. Now we wait and see how the other portions go.
It is a psychological trait known as "recency bias". We would all be well to guard against it when making important life decisions. On here it doesn't effect anything other than provide enjoyment in reading helter skelter posts.

One angle of Boals strategy before the MAC schedule began could be: We will likely start the season 1-4 given the talent we face and yet the remainder of the schedule should produce at least 8 additional wins. That will be good enough to get us in the hunt to Cleveland. Learning oppositely from my friend at Akron and the guy at Toledo, in the MAC it matters what happens in Cleveland. I see practice everyday and have a strategy to get us ready for March.

Imagine if Boals had NEVER played Wiz and the team was 1-4. Why I'd bet that half the board would say, we got a 6'11" Louisville transfer and he doesn't get on the floor. The team is playing lousy defense, we are putting height lacking guys in to sub for Wilson; Boals is wasting opportunity to see what Wiz can do.

Perhaps this team won't win 5 more games or perhaps come March who knows. IN BOALS WE TRUST!

GO BOBCATS. And AJ Brown, relax and keep stroking it but in the mean time, get some rebounds, make a few steals and block a few shots to help the guys while you get your MoJo back.
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OhioCatFan
1/18/2023 12:21 PM
Yes, the emotions on this board make wild swings. When we beat VA it was all about Boals bolting for a P6 job. Can we keep him at least another year to two? I'll wager if we don't make the MAC tourney, they'll be at least one post, if not a whole thread, on whether or not we should fire him.
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stub
1/18/2023 1:27 PM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
You are better off sticking a LaFerla twin out there over the Whiz.
A Laferla and the Whiz kid would make for an interesting front and back court.
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spongeBOB CATpants
1/18/2023 2:10 PM
MonroeClassmate wrote:expand_more
If it is one thing I have learned in my 20 years on BobcatAttack, it is that we let the schedule dictate how much we overreact. We flip out and hate everything after a tough stretch of schedule, then we marvel about all the progress and positivity after a weaker schedule / home games. Now is not the time to evaluate the season...this portion went about as expected, maybe a touch worse. Now we wait and see how the other portions go.
It is a psychological trait known as "recency bias". We would all be well to guard against it when making important life decisions. On here it doesn't effect anything other than provide enjoyment in reading helter skelter posts.

One angle of Boals strategy before the MAC schedule began could be: We will likely start the season 1-4 given the talent we face and yet the remainder of the schedule should produce at least 8 additional wins. That will be good enough to get us in the hunt to Cleveland. Learning oppositely from my friend at Akron and the guy at Toledo, in the MAC it matters what happens in Cleveland. I see practice everyday and have a strategy to get us ready for March.

Imagine if Boals had NEVER played Wiz and the team was 1-4. Why I'd bet that half the board would say, we got a 6'11" Louisville transfer and he doesn't get on the floor. The team is playing lousy defense, we are putting height lacking guys in to sub for Wilson; Boals is wasting opportunity to see what Wiz can do.

Perhaps this team won't win 5 more games or perhaps come March who knows. IN BOALS WE TRUST!

GO BOBCATS. And AJ Brown, relax and keep stroking it but in the mean time, get some rebounds, make a few steals and block a few shots to help the guys while you get your MoJo back.
Great post, you hit the nail on the head. In Boals we trust.
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FJC31
1/18/2023 2:24 PM
spongeBOB CATpants wrote:expand_more
How hard is it to pass the ball inside? Wilson can’t be stopped and we can’t get the ball to him . I think I will pass out if we ever use a bounce pass to him. Clayton looks lost. Wiz should play only if we are up 20. AJ Brown is pressing. Baker/ Hunter should come off the bench. We need a true point guard that isn’t going to be a turn over machine and can get guys good looks. I wouldn’t mind a starting lineup of
Sheldon
AJ Brown
James
Roderick
Wilson
Bring Miles Brown, clayton , Baker/Hunter, off the bench. If Clayton doesn’t want to be engaged get Hadaway to take his minutes.
Define their roles because right now it looks like Wilson is the only one that knows
I do think Hadaway and James should be considered more to start at this point. Nothing to lose, everything to gain.

Interesting stats on Clayton — he’s tossed up 69 3PA (1 less than Miles) to just 52 2PA on the season. He’s only making 35% of his 3PA, meanwhile he’s made 64% of his 2PA.

Clayton has scored in double-figures seven times this season. In five of those games, he’s shot 33% or less from 3 and in three of those five games; he attempted more 3’s than 2’s. So, even in his best scoring games, most of Clayton’s damage has come from inside the arc or at the line when he went 9/9 against Delaware.

Yet his first instinct is to fire away from 3. Someone on the staff needs to work with him on not prioritizing 3PA’s because he’s not nearly effective enough to be shooting more 3’s than 2’s on the season. Feels like an easy coaching fix that would result in consistent and better output. Or maybe he’s not listening, which is why his minutes have dropped.
I'm sure the staff is aware of this and I'm sure they work on this every day in practice. I think he needs a go-to move off the dribble when he gets the ball outside the arch. I imagine opponents want to close-out hard on him knowing he's a threat from 3 so the way to counter that is to take his man off the dribble to get them out of position.
He definitely needs a move off the dribble, but he also needs to spend less time hovering around the arc. If the staff is aware of this, then it it needs to change. He’s not helping himself or the team on this current trajectory.

I’d put Clayton up there with Elmore as being overly physically imposing for a young age. The more Clayton can utilize his body like BVP with his back against the basket, the better.
I don't disagree, I'd like to see him with some touches down low. I'm wondering if he just simply isn't good with his back to the hoop. I know his stats would suggest otherwise but there's other ways to score in the paint other than a posting up.
He may very well not be comfortable with his back against the basket. I think that’s ok; I’d just like to see him not take 11 shots a game with 7 of them being 3PA’s while only making 2. We need his 2PA’s to surpass his 3PA’s.
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BillyTheCat
1/18/2023 3:08 PM
RufusCat09 wrote:expand_more
This wasn't supposed to be a rebuild year...it only became that way once we realized that Boals missed on Hunter/Baker/Wiz.

I had high hopes at the beginning on the year when I looked at this roster on paper and how the PT would be divided. Not so much the case now.
It became a rebuilding year when you lost Sears and BVP. When you are replacing your offense, it is always rebuild mode. You can get depth out of the portal, but to expect to replace Sears and BVP from the portal is dreaming.
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BillyTheCat
1/18/2023 3:10 PM
stub wrote:expand_more
You are better off sticking a LaFerla twin out there over the Whiz.
A Laferla and the Whiz kid would make for an interesting front and back court.
Whiz would be the PF, with Bota playing the 5 spot.
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Jeff McKinney
1/18/2023 3:16 PM
In the interview after the Toledo game, Coach Boals said that beginning at practice Thursday, all five starting spots are open and that he will fill them based on defensive effort.
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BillyTheCat
1/18/2023 3:20 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
In the interview after the Toledo game, Coach Boals said that beginning at practice Thursday, all five starting spots are open and that he will fill them based on defensive effort.
Great Jeff, but very few people here care about defensive effort, and we need more points ;-)
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FJC31
1/18/2023 3:31 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
This wasn't supposed to be a rebuild year...it only became that way once we realized that Boals missed on Hunter/Baker/Wiz.

I had high hopes at the beginning on the year when I looked at this roster on paper and how the PT would be divided. Not so much the case now.
It became a rebuilding year when you lost Sears and BVP. When you are replacing your offense, it is always rebuild mode. You can get depth out of the portal, but to expect to replace Sears and BVP from the portal is dreaming.
Replacing offense isn’t always rebuilding mode and you can find more than depth in the portal. Sure, it’s challenging to replace exact offensive production year-to-year, but good programs can manage those blows. Ali Ali took his 14 ppg to Butler, but Akron replaced it with 9 ppg from Hankerson and 7 ppg from Hunter via portal to compliment Castenada and Freeman.

Buffalo lost Mballa and his 13 ppg to the portal, but added nearly 34 ppg from Powell, Adams, and Foster. Williams and Segu also graduated and averaged 19 ppg and 15 ppg,respectively.

Point being, both Akron and Buffalo lost key pieces to the portal and have managed by what they added it through it. So, this didn’t have to be rebuilding year. We just didn’t add right talent.
Last Edited: 1/18/2023 3:34:05 PM by FJC31
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crackerbaby00
1/18/2023 5:01 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
In the interview after the Toledo game, Coach Boals said that beginning at practice Thursday, all five starting spots are open and that he will fill them based on defensive effort.
It seemed like he started the competition in the 2nd half when James, Odelodun, and Hadaway were on the court a lot more.

I want to see James and AJ Brown on the court together a lot more going forward.
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Alan Swank
1/18/2023 7:31 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
In the interview after the Toledo game, Coach Boals said that beginning at practice Thursday, all five starting spots are open and that he will fill them based on defensive effort.
Didn't hear that but I can guarantee you one thing - regardless of how practice goes, Wilson will be in the starting lineup.
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CatsUp
1/18/2023 7:40 PM
Perhaps a bit overstated but sometimes I think it’s necessary to tear things down (experience shortcomings) in order to build things back up.
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bobcatsquared
1/18/2023 7:43 PM
EJ has shown that he gets to the rim off the dribble better than anyone on the team. I'm beginning to think that Hadaway, with limited sample size, is the second best on the team.

Not being at practice, I wonder if once these two, as well as their classmates AJB and Sheldon, begin to show Boals they're ready to play D at a level he's looking for, we're going to see more and more of all 4.
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BillyTheCat
1/18/2023 8:16 PM
FJC31 wrote:expand_more
This wasn't supposed to be a rebuild year...it only became that way once we realized that Boals missed on Hunter/Baker/Wiz.

I had high hopes at the beginning on the year when I looked at this roster on paper and how the PT would be divided. Not so much the case now.
It became a rebuilding year when you lost Sears and BVP. When you are replacing your offense, it is always rebuild mode. You can get depth out of the portal, but to expect to replace Sears and BVP from the portal is dreaming.
Replacing offense isn’t always rebuilding mode and you can find more than depth in the portal. Sure, it’s challenging to replace exact offensive production year-to-year, but good programs can manage those blows. Ali Ali took his 14 ppg to Butler, but Akron replaced it with 9 ppg from Hankerson and 7 ppg from Hunter via portal to compliment Castenada and Freeman.

Buffalo lost Mballa and his 13 ppg to the portal, but added nearly 34 ppg from Powell, Adams, and Foster. Williams and Segu also graduated and averaged 19 ppg and 15 ppg,respectively.

Point being, both Akron and Buffalo lost key pieces to the portal and have managed by what they added it through it. So, this didn’t have to be rebuilding year. We just didn’t add right talent.
Can you find me how many schools replaced their top two scorers with two portal guys and still having the same success.
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FJC31
1/18/2023 8:51 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
This wasn't supposed to be a rebuild year...it only became that way once we realized that Boals missed on Hunter/Baker/Wiz.

I had high hopes at the beginning on the year when I looked at this roster on paper and how the PT would be divided. Not so much the case now.
It became a rebuilding year when you lost Sears and BVP. When you are replacing your offense, it is always rebuild mode. You can get depth out of the portal, but to expect to replace Sears and BVP from the portal is dreaming.
Replacing offense isn’t always rebuilding mode and you can find more than depth in the portal. Sure, it’s challenging to replace exact offensive production year-to-year, but good programs can manage those blows. Ali Ali took his 14 ppg to Butler, but Akron replaced it with 9 ppg from Hankerson and 7 ppg from Hunter via portal to compliment Castenada and Freeman.

Buffalo lost Mballa and his 13 ppg to the portal, but added nearly 34 ppg from Powell, Adams, and Foster. Williams and Segu also graduated and averaged 19 ppg and 15 ppg,respectively.

Point being, both Akron and Buffalo lost key pieces to the portal and have managed by what they added it through it. So, this didn’t have to be rebuilding year. We just didn’t add right talent.
Can you find me how many schools replaced their top two scorers with two portal guys and still having the same success.
Sure, I’ll stick with a mid-major. FGCU — lost its top two leading scorers from last year (one to graduating and another to the portal) and two of its top three scorers this season are from the portal. Currently, FGCU is 13-6, after going 22-11 a season ago. It’s doable.
Last Edited: 1/18/2023 8:51:58 PM by FJC31
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