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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: The Next Level
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OUVan
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Posted: 3/6/2013 11:30 AM
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I hesitate starting this thread but I've been thinking about it ever since the Catholic 7 announced last week that they might be taking Creighton with them.  I've been a long proponent of Ohio being part of the solution to fixing the MAC but as every season passes that is seeming more and more like a pipe dream.   The MAC isn't interested in going where we want to go, at least in basketball.   So with that in mind I ask, if Creighton leaves and  the MVC comes calling do we accept?   And if we are able to make that move what do we do about football?
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Posted: 3/6/2013 11:40 AM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
I hesitate starting this thread but I've been thinking about it ever since the Catholic 7 announced last week that they might be taking Creighton with them.  I've been a long proponent of Ohio being part of the solution to fixing the MAC but as every season passes that is seeming more and more like a pipe dream.   The MAC isn't interested in going where we want to go, at least in basketball.   So with that in mind I ask, if Creighton leaves and  the MVC comes calling do we accept?   And if we are able to make that move what do we do about football?


You can leave football in the MAC, that's not a problem (see UMass and Temple). The former Big East is looking to fill one spot. Not sure if they want a full member or not.

I don't see the MVC calling, but with Schaus' ties there, you never know.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/6/2013 11:54 AM
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Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
I don't see the MVC calling, but with Schaus' ties there, you never know.


Just wondering but why is that?  If they are looking to get back to ten members I would think we would have to be one of the teams considered.   Who would be a better candidate?
OU_Country
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:01 PM
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The thing I would be concerned with in a move is the future stability of the league we move to -- See Marshall.  Personally, I don't understand how all the things behind the scenes are done, but I wish there were a way to "force" some of these schools to place a greater investment in hoops.  The ones I'm thinking of already play good football:  NIU, CMU, Ball State, BGSU, Miami.  Then find a way to add 1 or 3 schools while "forcing" EMU to improve or get out.  Again, I don't know how things are done behind the scenes, and the rules the govern the conference.  What I do know is that the MAC is well situated to be better than it currently is simply because of it's stability geography with markets.  The need to add a couple higher profile institutions is there and to get others to improve.

The other question simply becomes, where else is the grass really greener?  I can see other situations that are better for basketball, but there aren't many options for football that are better and realistic.
OU_Country
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:02 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
I don't see the MVC calling, but with Schaus' ties there, you never know.


Just wondering but why is that?  If they are looking to get back to ten members I would think we would have to be one of the teams considered.   Who would be a better candidate?


In a basketball only scenario, wouldn't Murray State or Belmont be better?
Ted Thompson
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:05 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
I don't see the MVC calling, but with Schaus' ties there, you never know.


Just wondering but why is that?  If they are looking to get back to ten members I would think we would have to be one of the teams considered.   Who would be a better candidate?


I just think for them to get out of their geographic footprint, you would have to offer a decent-sized market. But my opinion and 75 cents will get you a USA Today.

If Creighton gets into the Catholic 7 and SLU does not, I would think they would be a slam dunk. Majerus wanted to leave the A-10 for the MVC. I'm also not sure they would have to go back to 10.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:08 PM
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OU_Country wrote:expand_more
The thing I would be concerned with in a move is the future stability of the league we move to -- See Marshall. 


This is why I prefer the MVC over the other options, such as whatever becomes of the Big East.  They are stable, well run and committed to quality throughout the league.   The Big East right now is a hot mess and we could end up out on the streets in a couple of years.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:08 PM
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OU_Country wrote:expand_more
The thing I would be concerned with in a move is the future stability of the league we move to -- See Marshall.  Personally, I don't understand how all the things behind the scenes are done, but I wish there were a way to "force" some of these schools to place a greater investment in hoops.  The ones I'm thinking of already play good football:  NIU, CMU, Ball State, BGSU, Miami.  Then find a way to add 1 or 3 schools while "forcing" EMU to improve or get out.  Again, I don't know how things are done behind the scenes, and the rules the govern the conference.  What I do know is that the MAC is well situated to be better than it currently is simply because of it's stability geography with markets.  The need to add a couple higher profile institutions is there and to get others to improve.

The other question simply becomes, where else is the grass really greener?  I can see other situations that are better for basketball, but there aren't many options for football that are better and realistic.


I agree with this completely. So, I have to ask, even though people hate this question around here: Isn't the writing on the wall for football programs of our level? Major conference realignment and the upcoming playoff system all but assure that programs like ours are left out and that best-case scenario, in a good season, we'll get the best table scraps they're willing to offer. 

So where's the value in funding a top level program going forward? What do annual trips to the Independence Bowl or Potato Bowl offer us?

Time and time again people cite schools like Creighton, VCU, Butler, and Gonzaga as examples we should emulate. But they ignore the obvious thing those schools all have in common: they don't have BCS football programs. 

Basketball is the only sport in which there's a clear model that we can follow that leads us to the "next level." But it appears that financially, we can't do that with our current budget. 

Which means, essentially, that there are three options: 1) Somehow get alumni to step up donations substantially, 2) Seriously consider playing football at a level that isn't as costly, or 3) The status quo. 
Last Edited: 3/6/2013 12:09:40 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
OU_Country
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:09 PM
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Good call on SLU Ted.  They're a better MVC fit anyway.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:19 PM
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Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
I don't see the MVC calling, but with Schaus' ties there, you never know.


Just wondering but why is that?  If they are looking to get back to ten members I would think we would have to be one of the teams considered.   Who would be a better candidate?


I just think for them to get out of their geographic footprint, you would have to offer a decent-sized market. But my opinion and 75 cents will get you a USA Today.

If Creighton gets into the Catholic 7 and SLU does not, I would think they would be a slam dunk. Majerus wanted to leave the A-10 for the MVC. I'm also not sure they would have to go back to 10.


But don't they already have the St. Louis market with Southern Illinois?   And we aren't exactly a great deal out of their footprint.  Plus we have large alumni bases in Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati. 
Only one OHIO
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:21 PM
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Unless St.Louis joins the Big East:

"While Butler, Xavier and, most likely, Creighton are expected to join the new Big East this fall, the Catholic 7 schools are also expected to add Dayton and St. Louis in 2014 for a 12-team league."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/900...
OUVan
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:42 PM
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OU_Country wrote:expand_more
In a basketball only scenario, wouldn't Murray State or Belmont be better?


Why would they be better fits?  Both are much smaller schools with smaller basketball budgets.  Plus we've already stepped up our financial commitment to levels closer to MVC schools.  Both Murray State and Belmont have had nice runs but that doesn't mean they are now basketball schools. Both have relatively new rinky-dink arenas.  We are a much better candidate than either.
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:47 PM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
I agree with this completely. So, I have to ask, even though people hate this question around here: Isn't the writing on the wall for football programs of our level? Major conference realignment and the upcoming playoff system all but assure that programs like ours are left out and that best-case scenario, in a good season, we'll get the best table scraps they're willing to offer. 

So where's the value in funding a top level program going forward? What do annual trips to the Independence Bowl or Potato Bowl offer us?

Time and time again people cite schools like Creighton, VCU, Butler, and Gonzaga as examples we should emulate. But they ignore the obvious thing those schools all have in common: they don't have BCS football programs. 

Basketball is the only sport in which there's a clear model that we can follow that leads us to the "next level." But it appears that financially, we can't do that with our current budget. 

Which means, essentially, that there are three options: 1) Somehow get alumni to step up donations substantially, 2) Seriously consider playing football at a level that isn't as costly, or 3) The status quo. 


I like football; therefore, dropping football [down a level] is a bad idea, a non-starter.
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:49 PM
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Only one OHIO wrote:expand_more
Unless St.Louis joins the Big East:

"While Butler, Xavier and, most likely, Creighton are expected to join the new Big East this fall, the Catholic 7 schools are also expected to add Dayton and St. Louis in 2014 for a 12-team league."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/900...


I don't know if it's a good idea, but I thought of an idea of forming another conference and include some of the best teams in the MVC, OVC, old Big East, and A-10 along with some MAC schools in creating a dominant basketball conference. I left out the Catholic schools that might be invited into the Catholic Seven.

MVC: Wichita State, Missouri State, Indiana State
OVC: Belmont, Murray State
Old Big East: Cincinnati, USF, UCONN, UCF, Memphis, Temple
A-10: VCU, UMASS
MAC: Ohio, Akron, and Miami
Mark Lembright '85
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:53 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
In a basketball only scenario, wouldn't Murray State or Belmont be better?


Why would they be better fits?  Both are much smaller schools with smaller basketball budgets.  Plus we've already stepped up our financial commitment to levels closer to MVC schools.  Both Murray State and Belmont have had nice runs but that doesn't mean they are now basketball schools. Both have relatively new rinky-dink arenas.  We are a much better candidate than either.


Perhaps the answer lies in demographics?  I don't know.  I know that in the arena of college football, it's all about the revenue from TV and cable packages, that sort of thing.  That's one big reason why Ohio isn't such an attractive target for the BCS conferences.

I do not know if the same analysis holds true for college basketball, but I don't know if the market in SE Ohio (TV-wise) is such a big draw for the MVC.  Under that analysis, one could reason that Akron would be a better target for the MVC as Akron sits in a much larger metropolitan area with a very good b-ball program themselves.  I could be wrong.
Last Edited: 3/6/2013 12:55:18 PM by Mark Lembright '85
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:54 PM
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mf279801 wrote:expand_more
I agree with this completely. So, I have to ask, even though people hate this question around here: Isn't the writing on the wall for football programs of our level? Major conference realignment and the upcoming playoff system all but assure that programs like ours are left out and that best-case scenario, in a good season, we'll get the best table scraps they're willing to offer. 

So where's the value in funding a top level program going forward? What do annual trips to the Independence Bowl or Potato Bowl offer us?

Time and time again people cite schools like Creighton, VCU, Butler, and Gonzaga as examples we should emulate. But they ignore the obvious thing those schools all have in common: they don't have BCS football programs. 

Basketball is the only sport in which there's a clear model that we can follow that leads us to the "next level." But it appears that financially, we can't do that with our current budget. 

Which means, essentially, that there are three options: 1) Somehow get alumni to step up donations substantially, 2) Seriously consider playing football at a level that isn't as costly, or 3) The status quo. 


I like football; therefore, dropping football [down a level] is a bad idea, a non-starter.

Fair enough. But in that case, more than likely, we are what we are in both football and basketball.

Mark Lembright '85
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:57 PM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
I agree with this completely. So, I have to ask, even though people hate this question around here: Isn't the writing on the wall for football programs of our level? Major conference realignment and the upcoming playoff system all but assure that programs like ours are left out and that best-case scenario, in a good season, we'll get the best table scraps they're willing to offer. 

So where's the value in funding a top level program going forward? What do annual trips to the Independence Bowl or Potato Bowl offer us?

Time and time again people cite schools like Creighton, VCU, Butler, and Gonzaga as examples we should emulate. But they ignore the obvious thing those schools all have in common: they don't have BCS football programs. 

Basketball is the only sport in which there's a clear model that we can follow that leads us to the "next level." But it appears that financially, we can't do that with our current budget. 

Which means, essentially, that there are three options: 1) Somehow get alumni to step up donations substantially, 2) Seriously consider playing football at a level that isn't as costly, or 3) The status quo. 


I like football; therefore, dropping football [down a level] is a bad idea, a non-starter.

Fair enough. But in that case, more than likely, we are what we are in both football and basketball.



As I recall, wasn't Ohio just one a dozen or so universities in 2012 that won both a bowl game and a game in the NCAA Tournament?  I'm OK with that!!  :)
Last Edited: 3/6/2013 12:57:53 PM by Mark Lembright '85
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Posted: 3/6/2013 12:58 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
In a basketball only scenario, wouldn't Murray State or Belmont be better?


Why would they be better fits?  Both are much smaller schools with smaller basketball budgets.  Plus we've already stepped up our financial commitment to levels closer to MVC schools.  Both Murray State and Belmont have had nice runs but that doesn't mean they are now basketball schools. Both have relatively new rinky-dink arenas.  We are a much better candidate than either.


I think so too, but I'm thinking from the standpoint of the MVC wanting "basketball only" schools. Nothing more.  The arena at Murray State seats 8000+ so I wouldn't call it rinky dink. The Curb center is of course.
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Posted: 3/6/2013 1:01 PM
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Bobcats_828 wrote:expand_more
Unless St.Louis joins the Big East:

"While Butler, Xavier and, most likely, Creighton are expected to join the new Big East this fall, the Catholic 7 schools are also expected to add Dayton and St. Louis in 2014 for a 12-team league."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/900...


I don't know if it's a good idea, but I thought of an idea of forming another conference and include some of the best teams in the MVC, OVC, old Big East, and A-10 along with some MAC schools in creating a dominant basketball conference. I left out the Catholic schools that might be invited into the Catholic Seven.

MVC: Wichita State, Missouri State, Indiana State
OVC: Belmont, Murray State
Old Big East: Cincinnati, USF, UCONN, UCF, Memphis, Temple
A-10: VCU, UMASS
MAC: Ohio, Akron, and Miami


I wouldn't include Miami in any new conference scenario's.  Other than hockey, they're a weak link.  I'd rather have Toledo and Kent involved in such a scenario.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/6/2013 1:03 PM
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OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I think so too, but I'm thinking from the standpoint of the MVC wanting "basketball only" schools. Nothing more.  The arena at Murray State seats 8000+ so I wouldn't call it rinky dink. The Curb center is of course.


But we would be joining only for basketball.


My bad on Murray State's arena.  I misread the capacity.
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Posted: 3/6/2013 1:04 PM
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The MAC has shown that we can look elsewhere in sports like basketball and not have to worry about them coming back at us and dropping us in football.  Unless we get some crazy offer (i.e. ACC) I think football is best off in the MAC.

One encouraging sign: With our success in hoops and football, we have started to see more TV time around Ohio.  For instance, Time Warner picked up the Ohio @ Buffalo hoops game last night.  I don't recall them doing that before.
Why do I mention this?  Well, we are Ohio. The Athens market isn't going to intrigue any conferences, but if we can drum up interest from alumni in the 3 C's, all of a sudden the Ohio Bobcats TV market doesn't look too bad.  I do not buy that we can not get interest around the state of Ohio.. We are Ohio, not SE Ohio State or Athens University. We have an alumni base spread around the state, and the name to draw casual fans.
Could Ohio Bobcats basketball in the MVC or A-10 draw increased TV interest in Ohio's big cities? Absolutely. If we were playing some of the marquee basketball names in those conferences, I think we could see even more TV interest from STO, FSO, Time Warner etc...
That makes us a better choice than Murray State and Belmont, IMO.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/6/2013 1:06 PM
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OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I wouldn't include Miami in any new conference scenario's.  Other than hockey, they're a weak link.  I'd rather have Toledo and Kent involved in such a scenario.


Agreed. Sadly their funding to basketball and football has dropped so much that they are no longer one of the banner carriers for the conference. They have become one of the problems and maybe the biggest problem since they used to be counted on as one of the good team.s
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Posted: 3/6/2013 1:11 PM
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I agree with you, Optimist, I think Ohio is a better draw than those 2 schools.  I still wonder with everything else being equal, if the MVC would look at Akron ahead of Ohio?  I only throw Akron out there because they have just as many alumni if not more than Ohio, have a very good basketball program themselves and sit squarely in the middle of a 2 million person plus metropolitan area.
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Posted: 3/6/2013 1:13 PM
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Bobcats_828 wrote:expand_more
Unless St.Louis joins the Big East:

"While Butler, Xavier and, most likely, Creighton are expected to join the new Big East this fall, the Catholic 7 schools are also expected to add Dayton and St. Louis in 2014 for a 12-team league."

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/900...


I don't know if it's a good idea, but I thought of an idea of forming another conference and include some of the best teams in the MVC, OVC, old Big East, and A-10 along with some MAC schools in creating a dominant basketball conference. I left out the Catholic schools that might be invited into the Catholic Seven.

MVC: Wichita State, Missouri State, Indiana State
OVC: Belmont, Murray State
Old Big East: Cincinnati, USF, UCONN, UCF, Memphis, Temple
A-10: VCU, UMASS
MAC: Ohio, Akron, and Miami


It's a nice though, but a fantasy. I mean, the major drivers in that scenario would clealry be the former Big East schools, and why would they have interest in the OVC, MVC, and MAC portion of that alignment when they could basically just merge with what's left of the A-10 and pick and choose from Conference USA, too?
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Posted: 3/6/2013 1:14 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
I wouldn't include Miami in any new conference scenario's.  Other than hockey, they're a weak link.  I'd rather have Toledo and Kent involved in such a scenario.


Agreed. Sadly their funding to basketball and football has dropped so much that they are no longer one of the banner carriers for the conference. They have become one of the problems and maybe the biggest problem since they used to be counted on as one of the good team.s


I only included them to sustain a good rivalry and a two game series where we can kick their ass. :(. Else wise I would give the nod to CMU, Toledo, Kent, or BGSU. All either have an ok team, new arena, or a mix of both. 
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