Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Coach Groce wishes three Illini players well in their future endeavors...
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HeHateMiami
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Posted: 4/9/2013 10:49 AM
Plenty of strong points made by people on both sides of this debate. Luckily we don't need to settle it on our own. I'm assuming that you guys have heard about the Ed O'Bannon vs NCAA/EA Sports/etc. 

This SI article does a pretty good job of laying out what's going on, but it really has the potential to settle the "Should college athletes be paid?" argument in the not so distant future. 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20...
redrustler
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Posted: 4/9/2013 1:24 PM
It seems pretty simple to me. If the program changes the terms of the deal (scholarship) which induced the player to agree to play with the program, then the NCAA should not require the player to sit out a year. The player gets punished becaue the program changed its mind? The other solution would be to tell the program that if it pulls a scholarship from a player, it can't offer that scholarship to another player.
Ohio69
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Posted: 4/9/2013 3:57 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
I'm going to play the race card too.  Several 99% white sports (like swimming for instance) do not make transfers sit out a year.  The sports with heaviest African American participation sure do.  Hmmmmmmmmm........

I can't believe some enterprising young Congressman hasn't started inserting rules into bills.  Like any educational institution that accepts federal money of any kind cannot prevent any student from immediately enrolling in another institution, immediately receiving a scholarship, and begin participating in athletic events at the start of the next regularly scheduled season for that sport.


Well,

thats nice.....throwing the race card.

Race has not one thing to do with it. It is all about the money. How many concerted efforts to load HS swim teams, cross country teams, golf teams are a result of playing together on an AAU  and tehn transfer HS to play together are borne of a desire to be more marketable? OJ Mayo and Crew heading off to NOrth College Hill (notenough balls to play in the top Division) in order to market him as the next LeBron and take advantage of the OHSAA rules as opposed to those in  WV/KY is a great example. WHen this goes on starting in 6th/7th grade and players are found out later to be overaged AFTER they have won several national tourneys and garnered 5 years of  the publicity and recruiting hype that came with winning you can see what goes into creating the "next NBA gazillionaire". If the transfer rule goes away this brings those same things into the college game and the same corruption that exists and everyone detests in AAU ball muddies up the college game. I do not see that level of greed, corruption, shoe company and sponsor money existing in your so called "white" sports.

It is all about greedy parents, and handlers,  misguided players and their obsession with the money and not at all about the color of anyone's skin. Shame on you.


Maybe shame on me.  But, it would be interesting to listen to some lawyers familiar with discrimination laws discuss this.

For the record, I don't think athletes should be paid.  But, I do think many current rules, especially the sit-out-a-year rule, need to be changed.
Ohio69
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Posted: 4/9/2013 4:06 PM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
I'm going to play the race card too.  Several 99% white sports (like swimming for instance) do not make transfers sit out a year.  The sports with heaviest African American participation sure do.  Hmmmmmmmmm........


Have you actually thought of the reason that is?   And I noticed you didn't mention that ice hockey or baseball have the same transfer regulations.  Or that track and field, another sport with heavy African-American participation, does not have it.  Here is the NCAA explanation for why they have transfer rules for basketball, baseball, football and ice hockey.


The year-in-residence is required to help student-athletes adjust to their new school and ensure that their transfer was motivated by academics as well as athletics. Student-athletes who participate in most NCAA sports are eligible for a one-time transfer exception, which allows them to compete immediately after transfer once in their college experience if they meet all other transfer requirements (such as being academically eligible).

However, student-athletes in sports that are historically academically underperforming –  including basketball, football, baseball and men’s ice hockey – are not eligible for the exception. Though student-athletes in these sports can’t compete in their first year at their new school, they can receive an athletics scholarship and practice with the team. A waiver process is available to all student-athletes, and each waiver request is reviewed individually. From April 2011 to April 2012, the NCAA approved 91 transfer waivers and denied 71.



Sorry OUVan.  But, I'm not buying any of that stuff in italics.  Time to get motivate for academics?  What about a true freshman?  Wouldn't they have even a bigger need to "get motivated" for academics?

True freshman can start football games their first few days as a student, and in some cases before they even attend a class.  Why?  Because that favors the schools and coaches. 

But a transfer needs to sit out a whole year?  Just hard for me to buy that argument.
JSF
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Posted: 4/9/2013 4:38 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
that may be but on the surface this very high profile non profit, in their online explanations are giving the impression that they are returning the money to the member schools. I do not see the member schools raising hell about not seeing it or implying that the financials are implicitly wrong.


You're right. I should not have implied the NCAA wasn't doing, money-wise, exactly what they claimed. I can complain about college presidents, athletic directors, and coaches gaming the system so they reap the biggest profits, but that's a complaint I can copy to myriad organizations, churches, and corporations.

Questions I have about that 95% include whether it's the right thing to do to extract every dollar possible from basketball players in order to subsidize other sports (especially when football has all but juked out of this.

My problems with the 5% they keep include their capricious, hypocritical enforcement of rules, their micro-managing to a self-satirical degree, their self-righteous attitude, questions about the details that have come out in the Miami case, and the sense that all their rulings and laws seem to favor schools or itself but never the actual athletes they claim to protect and be there for.
OUVan
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Posted: 4/9/2013 4:38 PM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
Sorry OUVan.  But, I'm not buying any of that stuff in italics.  Time to get motivate for academics?  What about a true freshman?  Wouldn't they have even a bigger need to "get motivated" for academics?

True freshman can start football games their first few days as a student, and in some cases before they even attend a class.  Why?  Because that favors the schools and coaches. 

But a transfer needs to sit out a whole year?  Just hard for me to buy that argument.


It doesn't matter if you buy their explanation or not. The evidence provided clearly shows that it isn't a decision based on race.  I think the truth is pretty much about what borna said it was. It's about money.  The four sports mentioned are the sports that are likely to have the most incentive for corruption.  I have no idea if statistics give any credibility to the NCAA statement either.  But it doesn't matter if that's the case or not.  The whole point of my post was that your "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" arguement that this was just another way to keep the black man down is way beyond ludicrous.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 4/9/2013 5:48 PM
D.A. wrote:expand_more
Since this topic has been lingering a few days, ......, that is not a good thing for the academic institutions as a whole.
\.


DId not want to take up the space .....but that is a great take D A
JSF
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Posted: 4/9/2013 7:01 PM
I'm going to add this to the list.
D.A.
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Posted: 4/9/2013 10:00 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
that may be but on the surface this very high profile non profit, in their online explanations are giving the impression that they are returning the money to the member schools. I do not see the member schools raising hell about not seeing it or implying that the financials are implicitly wrong.


You're right. I should not have implied the NCAA wasn't doing, money-wise, exactly what they claimed. I can complain about college presidents, athletic directors, and coaches gaming the system so they reap the biggest profits, but that's a complaint I can copy to myriad organizations, churches, and corporations.

Questions I have about that 95% include whether it's the right thing to do to extract every dollar possible from basketball players in order to subsidize other sports (especially when football has all but juked out of this.

My problems with the 5% they keep include their capricious, hypocritical enforcement of rules, their micro-managing to a self-satirical degree, their self-righteous attitude, questions about the details that have come out in the Miami case, and the sense that all their rulings and laws seem to favor schools or itself but never the actual athletes they claim to protect and be there for.

No doubt that the NCAA can improve A LOT on the administrative side of things.  You would probably get 100% support of the population not employed by the NCAA to agree with that.
giacomo
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Posted: 4/9/2013 10:20 PM
It's not a question of who is better off, blah, blah,blah. Of course a kid is better off with a college degree. If the school athletic teams are behaving like professional business with a profit motive such that some are, then the kids are not being fairly compensated. How many of you earn 50k a year(I'm being generous with the analogy) while your boss earns 2-7 million and the company makes even more? You've got 12- 15 employees, who are really the talent and bring in the money and they all make 50k and the boss makes 2-7M? How long would that last? It wouldn't. I predict it won't be too long before changes occur.
colobobcat66
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Posted: 4/9/2013 10:52 PM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
It's not a question of who is better off, blah, blah,blah. Of course a kid is better off with a college degree. If the school athletic teams are behaving like professional business with a profit motive such that some are, then the kids are not being fairly compensated. How many of you earn 50k a year(I'm being generous with the analogy) while your boss earns 2-7 million and the company makes even more? You've got 12- 15 employees, who are really the talent and bring in the money and they all make 50k and the boss makes 2-7M? How long would that last? It wouldn't. I predict it won't be too long before changes occur.
. I'm not sure how your analogy pertains to the majority of lower echelon programs like Ohio. There is nobody-boss?- who makes 2-7 million in the loop here for sure. The ones who seem to benefit the most are the hundreds of athletes in non-revenue sports who get the free rides for doing what they love. We're not talking about Alabama or Michigan here. I have little doubt that this whole pay the athlete thing will eventually break up the NCAA as we know it or at least the FBS as we now have it, into haves and have nots and Ohio is in the latter category when it comes to athletics.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 4/10/2013 1:00 AM
Did you see the statement by the B1G commissioner that his league would go to a non-scholarship D3 model before they would agree to a pay-for-play scenario?  This whole issue is not as clear cut as some of you think.  It could be the end of college athletics as we know it, but not in the way that has been speculated here on BA. 
Ohio69
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Posted: 4/10/2013 8:35 AM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
Sorry OUVan.  But, I'm not buying any of that stuff in italics.  Time to get motivate for academics?  What about a true freshman?  Wouldn't they have even a bigger need to "get motivated" for academics?

True freshman can start football games their first few days as a student, and in some cases before they even attend a class.  Why?  Because that favors the schools and coaches. 

But a transfer needs to sit out a whole year?  Just hard for me to buy that argument.


It doesn't matter if you buy their explanation or not. The evidence provided clearly shows that it isn't a decision based on race.  I think the truth is pretty much about what borna said it was. It's about money.  The four sports mentioned are the sports that are likely to have the most incentive for corruption.  I have no idea if statistics give any credibility to the NCAA statement either.  But it doesn't matter if that's the case or not.  The whole point of my post was that your "wink, wink, nudge, nudge" arguement that this was just another way to keep the black man down is way beyond ludicrous.


OK.  So maybe I shouldn't have brought up race.  I don't think the NCAA is racist.  But, I still think some student athlete somewhere might have a good disparate impact case. 

Talk of putting academics first and students needing a year to get used to college ain't working though.  There's way too many examples of the opposite being put into practice.

A Toledo coach just joined Groce's staff.  Did I miss someone leaving Groce's staff?
Last Edited: 4/10/2013 8:36:37 AM by Ohio69
bornacatfan
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Posted: 4/10/2013 9:13 AM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
[
A Toledo coach just joined Groce's staff.  Did I miss someone leaving Groce's staff?


http://www.illinoisloyalty.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=19782
giacomo
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Posted: 4/11/2013 4:49 PM
You are correct in saying that Ohio is not playing in that arena. It's the Big 6 conferences plus Big East basketball and a few others.
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