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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Better Pay For A Big Man Next Season
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FearLeon
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Posted: 12/26/2023 3:07 PM
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M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
Cornish was actually very good in limited time vs APSU.

And then 13 points and 7 boards against the blind school before that.
Cornish is still developing his game, while also playing out of position here. He didn't play much as a freshman at Maryland. This is his first real PT and it's still pretty sparingly. He's buried behind five shoot-first guards. He's got this entire year - plus another two years to show us what he's got.

I'm not ready to call this a "miss" or to continue crying about it in every thread as some choose to do. Is Hadaway also a bust? Or are we happy he's developing?

The sky is not falling. He's 20. When AJB or Elmore jump into the portal next season, Ike is gonna be our sigh of relief.

And yes - I think we need a portal big man. Evans will more than likely be our man in the middle next season, but a lack of depth kills us.
This is my thinking as well. I'm not even close to calling Cornish a whiff. The sample size and playing time isn't enough for me to say that. What he does need to do is really hit the weight room and add strength. And I was very unsure of Captain Chaos last year, but it's clear, he's developing and not a whiff. He just needs to stop being so hard on himself on the court when he commits a mistake. Boals made a baffling decision not playing Chaos the last 7 minutes against AP.
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Posted: 12/26/2023 4:22 PM
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I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 12/26/2023 4:56 PM
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M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
[
Cornish is still developing his game, while also playing out of position here. He didn't play much as a freshman at Maryland. This is his first real PT and it's still pretty sparingly. He's buried behind five shoot-first guards. He's got this entire year - plus another two years to show us what he's got.

I'm not ready to call this a "miss" or to continue crying about it in every thread as some choose to do. Is Hadaway also a bust? Or are we happy he's developing?

The sky is not falling. He's 20. When AJB or Elmore jump into the portal next season, Ike is gonna be our sigh of relief.

And yes - I think we need a portal big man. Evans will more than likely be our man in the middle next season, but a lack of depth kills us.

It's the second thread I've mentioned it in. And I haven't suggested Cornish isn't still developing; I've just stated that I don't think players who need substantial development time are the right sorts of portal targets.

The most successful portal transfers we've had have been known quantities with substantial minutes to look at and project. Hunter and Wilson, for instance. I suspect that's going to end up being the best way to recruit the portal. The portal will be for being older and bringing in more experience; high school recruiting for players that need development.

Others can disagree. Sorry it's such a sensitive subject around here.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 12/26/2023 6:58 PM
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FJC31 wrote:expand_more
It is equivalent and I’ve already explained why.
Sorry man, I don't really follow your explanation on this. You stated up-thread that: "Not removing games he’s played double-digit minutes to conclude your analysis is equivalent to looking at a hitters entire slash without breaking down how he faired against righties and lefties, then determining his overall value. Ike’s splits to date suggest he plays better when he plays more minutes."

But I don't see lefty/righty splits as remotely equivalent to minutes played. There's a reason guys don't get minutes and it's a meaningful data point that Cornish hasn't consistently broken into the rotation and earned the sort of minutes you're suggesting he needs to play to be successful.

All I'm doing is looking at all of the minutes he's played, and his rate stats during those minutes. I recognize that's not perfect, but it's not like I'm just making things up out of thin air.

FJC31 wrote:expand_more
You are grossly overvaluing the strength of MAC (or Mid-Major in general) basketball in comparison to P5 basketball. Again, if aIguy is cracking the rotation at any P5 school, he’s certainly not looking for opportunities at this level. On the flip side, Tanner Holden couldn’t replicate success on a below .500 OSU team. Ali’s numbers dipped on a sub .500 Butler team. Where are they now?
Jeff Boals is the MAC's highest paid coach. We should be a top 3 program in the MAC year in, year out, and we should be in the NCAA tournament every 4-5 years. Maryland and Louisville (in Wiz's case) are teams we should be competitive with. If a guy can't get any minutes at one of those schools, I don't think it's a strong indicator for him being a difference maker for us. Maybe you think the P5 is so good that the 3rd guy off the bench for a school like Maryland is a difference maker in the MAC. I suspect that's quite rare. Not impossible, but rare.

As for Ali Ali, he just stopped making threes. He shot terribly at Butler, and he's shooting terribly so far for Akron this year. I'm not so sure it's the level he's playing at. Just seems like the yips.

FJC31 wrote:expand_more
Some people are glass half full, some are glass half empty. Others just have the wrong glass. Be critical all you want, let me know when it’s ok to be critical of your takes. Here, you first.
I've been engaging in conversation with you about my take. It wasn't until you decided it was some irrational thing that could only be driven by an "axe to grind" with Cornish and that my take here means that "[Ike] totally sucks and so does this team" that I said "let me know when it's okay to be critical of that."

I don't think my take here is all that crazy. I'm suggesting that a guy who transferred in and is currently our 10th man -- and that a whole bunch of people here projected as our starting 4(here's the thread from when he committed: https://bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPage=... ) -- has been a disappointing recruit.

Maybe he'll be better in the future. I hope so. But we're through the non-conference schedule at this point, and there's a lot to be critical of with this team and with Boals. Boals is in year 5 here, and there are very valid reasons to be concerned about the talent on the floor.


Oh, and P.S. Merry Christmas to you, too.
Last Edited: 12/26/2023 7:00:29 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 12/26/2023 7:05 PM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Yep, this is definitely a part of the point. Others have said the 1804 Collective's raised ~100k per year for Boals to play with. How he spends that money's a big part of his job now, whether we like it or not. When we lose recruits because of money, how we spend that money becomes even more relevant.
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Posted: 12/27/2023 7:25 AM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Yep, this is definitely a part of the point. Others have said the 1804 Collective's raised ~100k per year for Boals to play with. How he spends that money's a big part of his job now, whether we like it or not. When we lose recruits because of money, how we spend that money becomes even more relevant.
You literally called Ike a swing and miss four times in this thread alone. If your point was about the allocations of the collective’s funds, discussing with Graftz (I agree with his point on how things likely played out) initial post in this thread would have probably made more sense. Instead of commenting on the part of mine where I state I don’t think Ike is a swing and miss then further leaning into him specifically.
Last Edited: 12/27/2023 8:02:29 AM by FJC31
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 12/27/2023 8:07 AM
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FJC31 wrote:expand_more
I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Yep, this is definitely a part of the point. Others have said the 1804 Collective's raised ~100k per year for Boals to play with. How he spends that money's a big part of his job now, whether we like it or not. When we lose recruits because of money, how we spend that money becomes even more relevant.
You literally called Ike a swing and miss four times in this thread alone. If your point was about the allocations of the collective’s funds, discussing with Graftz (I agree with his point on how things likely played out) initial post in this thread would have probably made more sense. Instead of commenting on the part of mine where I state I don’t think Ike is a swing and miss then further leaning into him specifically.
This is my first post in this thread:

Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
In professional sports, a big part of how you assess a team is through what their GM spends, and whether the money's used effectively.

The NIL is still completely opaque, so it's a black box and impossible to know. But if we gave NIL money to Cornish that could have gone to improving the offer to a big, that's awful. A big swing and miss.
It was about both the NIL allocation and Ike's performance. Those things seem closely related to me, no?
FJC31
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Posted: 12/27/2023 11:20 AM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Yep, this is definitely a part of the point. Others have said the 1804 Collective's raised ~100k per year for Boals to play with. How he spends that money's a big part of his job now, whether we like it or not. When we lose recruits because of money, how we spend that money becomes even more relevant.
You literally called Ike a swing and miss four times in this thread alone. If your point was about the allocations of the collective’s funds, discussing with Graftz (I agree with his point on how things likely played out) initial post in this thread would have probably made more sense. Instead of commenting on the part of mine where I state I don’t think Ike is a swing and miss then further leaning into him specifically.
This is my first post in this thread:

In professional sports, a big part of how you assess a team is through what their GM spends, and whether the money's used effectively.

The NIL is still completely opaque, so it's a black box and impossible to know. But if we gave NIL money to Cornish that could have gone to improving the offer to a big, that's awful. A big swing and miss.
It was about both the NIL allocation and Ike's performance. Those things seem closely related to me, no?
My guy, not a single person engaged with you on that post. However, you took the opportunity (like in other threads) to dig your heels into deeming Ike a swing and miss yet again, when you saw I said otherwise. As MDWST pointed out, it’s been a constant theme all season.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 12/27/2023 12:01 PM
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FJC31 wrote:expand_more
My guy, not a single person engaged with you on that post. However, you took the opportunity (like in other threads) to dig your heels into deeming Ike a swing and miss yet again, when you saw I said otherwise. As MDWST pointed out, it’s been a constant theme all season.
You engaged with it. Very obviously and directly. You used an exact phrase from my post, and spoke to an idea only I raised. Two posts after mine. A little late to be acting like this is a topic nobody engaged with. We're on reply 6 or whatever, man.

FJC31 wrote:expand_more
I still don’t consider Ike a swing and miss. He knocked down a needed 3 last night and grabbed 4 rebounds. He cuts back door quite often and doesn’t get the ball.
We disagree about Ike Cornish's value. Not the end of the world, dude. I think I've been pretty clear about why I feel that way, and when the bull case for a guy a lot of people slotted into the starting lineup when he signed is that with proper development time, we'll see if he's MAC caliber guy, I don't think it's some huge stretch to call him a disappointment.

I really, really like Jeff Boals. He seems like a great dude, and I like the way he represents OU and connects with players. But it's very striking how unwilling many people here are to criticize him, especially in contrast to Tim Albin, who a small, but annoying minority wanted to fire after a 10 win season.
Last Edited: 12/27/2023 12:02:46 PM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
FJC31
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Posted: 12/27/2023 1:19 PM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
My guy, not a single person engaged with you on that post. However, you took the opportunity (like in other threads) to dig your heels into deeming Ike a swing and miss yet again, when you saw I said otherwise. As MDWST pointed out, it’s been a constant theme all season.
You engaged with it. Very obviously and directly. You used an exact phrase from my post, and spoke to an idea only I raised. Two posts after mine. A little late to be acting like this is a topic nobody engaged with. We're on reply 6 or whatever, man.
If I'm directly engaging with you or anyone for that matter on here, I will quote your post. Otherwise, it's just free flowing thoughts.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 12/27/2023 1:48 PM
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FJC31 wrote:expand_more
My guy, not a single person engaged with you on that post. However, you took the opportunity (like in other threads) to dig your heels into deeming Ike a swing and miss yet again, when you saw I said otherwise. As MDWST pointed out, it’s been a constant theme all season.
You engaged with it. Very obviously and directly. You used an exact phrase from my post, and spoke to an idea only I raised. Two posts after mine. A little late to be acting like this is a topic nobody engaged with. We're on reply 6 or whatever, man.
If I'm directly engaging with you or anyone for that matter on here, I will quote your post. Otherwise, it's just free flowing thoughts.
Cool.
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Posted: 12/27/2023 3:15 PM
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FJC31 wrote:expand_more
I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Yep, this is definitely a part of the point. Others have said the 1804 Collective's raised ~100k per year for Boals to play with. How he spends that money's a big part of his job now, whether we like it or not. When we lose recruits because of money, how we spend that money becomes even more relevant.
You literally called Ike a swing and miss four times in this thread alone. If your point was about the allocations of the collective’s funds, discussing with Graftz (I agree with his point on how things likely played out) initial post in this thread would have probably made more sense. Instead of commenting on the part of mine where I state I don’t think Ike is a swing and miss then further leaning into him specifically.
This is my first post in this thread:

In professional sports, a big part of how you assess a team is through what their GM spends, and whether the money's used effectively.

The NIL is still completely opaque, so it's a black box and impossible to know. But if we gave NIL money to Cornish that could have gone to improving the offer to a big, that's awful. A big swing and miss.
It was about both the NIL allocation and Ike's performance. Those things seem closely related to me, no?
My guy, not a single person engaged with you on that post. However, you took the opportunity (like in other threads) to dig your heels into deeming Ike a swing and miss yet again, when you saw I said otherwise. As MDWST pointed out, it’s been a constant theme all season.
If we gave Cornish a 'large chunk' of NIL cash to come, and we don't know that, I still don't see how it's a miss two months into the season. He can't even legally drink. BLSS is gonna be upset about him for three more years. I'm excited about that. That's a shift in what has been our portal philosophy.

If someone feels we need more Devon Bakers, then that's great. Happy to have that discussion.

This last round we swung for a 19 year old former Top 100 player who is full of potential, rather than a 25 year old who will get you 10 every night. You're happy to have your opinion on that, maybe we do need that 10 every night, the steady leadership, whatever it is, but I'm more than happy to kick the tires on the highest rated recruit in the conference. If he develops into the Top 100 player everyone thought he was, that brought him to Maryland... we have a MAC POY on our hands.

To keep fighting this fight solo, every thread over and over about a kid averaging his first collegiate minutes... I'm happy to sit this one out until we have a larger data set. Tired of playing this game. HES NOT PLAYING VERY MUCH. SEE. I WAS RIGHT. SEE. SOMEBODY LOOK. TELL ME I WAS RIGHT.
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Posted: 12/27/2023 6:48 PM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Yep, this is definitely a part of the point. Others have said the 1804 Collective's raised ~100k per year for Boals to play with. How he spends that money's a big part of his job now, whether we like it or not. When we lose recruits because of money, how we spend that money becomes even more relevant.
Problem is, if you have $100k to play with and the people you are recruiting against have $250k, what’s the coach going to do? If you want to go to the next level you ain’t trying to spend more than Kent or Miami
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Posted: 12/27/2023 8:45 PM
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M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
I WAS RIGHT. SEE. SOMEBODY LOOK. TELL ME I WAS RIGHT.
You was right.
GraffZ06
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Posted: 12/27/2023 11:15 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Yep, this is definitely a part of the point. Others have said the 1804 Collective's raised ~100k per year for Boals to play with. How he spends that money's a big part of his job now, whether we like it or not. When we lose recruits because of money, how we spend that money becomes even more relevant.
Problem is, if you have $100k to play with and the people you are recruiting against have $250k, what’s the coach going to do? If you want to go to the next level you ain’t trying to spend more than Kent or Miami
Ding ding ding.

We either find large sums of $$ (doesn't exist)

Or we play Moneyball in the portal trying to find undervalued talent (which when it hits will allow us to compete above our payroll, but will also sometimes swing and miss)

Or we accept the fact that our budget is on par with Bowling Green and that's the types of recruits and results we should expect moving forward.

It's a new world in NCAA free agency. Welcome to it.

The days of recruiting guys to the small town charm and atmosphere of Athens with a much larger fan community and athletic support system than most/many mids, is a thing of the past.

Get that paper man.
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Posted: 12/28/2023 12:51 AM
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BobcatSports wrote:expand_more
Better Call Saul!!
😎
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Posted: 12/28/2023 12:54 AM
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GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
Or we accept the fact that our budget is on par with Bowling Green and that's the types of recruits and results we should expect moving forward.
👆

Start writing checks or quiet down….
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Posted: 12/28/2023 2:13 PM
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Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
Or we accept the fact that our budget is on par with Bowling Green and that's the types of recruits and results we should expect moving forward.
👆

Start writing checks or quiet down….

This wasn't meant to be a d*ck measuring contest. Just a statement of the reality of the situation specifically as it pertains to buying productive bigs.

I can and do send $$ but it doesn't have enough 0s to move the needle in any appreciable way.

Boals understands the reality better than any of us and it's why I think you see him going after Wiznitzer and Ike in the portal (high risk high reward but affordable) and instead focusing resources on 4 year bigs like Clayton and Evans and loading up on more abundant and affordable wings/guards.

It may or may not ultimately work out but it's the situation we find ourselves in unless you know of someone with lots more 0s than me.
Last Edited: 12/28/2023 2:17:50 PM by GraffZ06
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Posted: 12/28/2023 5:49 PM
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this team is starting to show signs of being the modern version of the 97-98 team. yet another game lost thaT EASILT SHOULDVE BEEN WON
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Posted: 12/29/2023 10:06 AM
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GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
Or we accept the fact that our budget is on par with Bowling Green and that's the types of recruits and results we should expect moving forward.
👆

Start writing checks or quiet down….


I can and do send $$ but it doesn't have enough 0s to move the needle in any appreciable way.
We are in the same boat.
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Posted: 12/29/2023 11:29 AM
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M.D.W.S.T wrote:expand_more
To keep fighting this fight solo, every thread over and over about a kid averaging his first collegiate minutes... I'm happy to sit this one out until we have a larger data set. Tired of playing this game. HES NOT PLAYING VERY MUCH. SEE. I WAS RIGHT. SEE. SOMEBODY LOOK. TELL ME I WAS RIGHT.
Your version of "sitting this one out" seems to be being the angriest about it while posting multiple times in both of the threads I mentioned it.

We disagree on Cornish and the "right" way to recruit the portal. It's cool, man. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay.
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Posted: 12/29/2023 11:31 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I think some of y'all are getting away from the point BLSS was trying to make. It wasn't necessarily that he as a player is a whiff (still yet to be determined) - it was whether the staff invested a significant portion of NIL money to get him here. If so, the return on investment hasn't lived up to the billing. That's the argument.
Yep, this is definitely a part of the point. Others have said the 1804 Collective's raised ~100k per year for Boals to play with. How he spends that money's a big part of his job now, whether we like it or not. When we lose recruits because of money, how we spend that money becomes even more relevant.
Problem is, if you have $100k to play with and the people you are recruiting against have $250k, what’s the coach going to do? If you want to go to the next level you ain’t trying to spend more than Kent or Miami
There will always be schools with larger budgets than us, and we're never going to be able to just straight outspend. But that doesn't mean that there isn't an obligation to spend the money efficiently/effectively.

Like I said, whether we like it or not, how that money's spent is now a part of how we have to judge Boals' performance.
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Posted: 12/29/2023 11:50 AM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
To keep fighting this fight solo, every thread over and over about a kid averaging his first collegiate minutes... I'm happy to sit this one out until we have a larger data set. Tired of playing this game. HES NOT PLAYING VERY MUCH. SEE. I WAS RIGHT. SEE. SOMEBODY LOOK. TELL ME I WAS RIGHT.
Your version of "sitting this one out" seems to be being the angriest about it while posting multiple times in both of the threads I mentioned it.

We disagree on Cornish and the "right" way to recruit the portal. It's cool, man. Take a deep breath. It'll be okay.
Like most people, I usually just ignore you. Occasionally, I'll respond to your rambling nonsense - usually not even directly to you, because again - no one cries more or harder than you - so it's not worth the effort. At this point it's just sad and I feel bad. Go outside.
Last Edited: 12/29/2023 11:53:20 AM by M.D.W.S.T
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Posted: 12/29/2023 1:35 PM
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Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Lot of speculation on nil deals in this thread. I'm guessing the "guesses" are way over-inflated so I did a quick search and found this article. I wonder if anyone from the local media has pursued this.

https://www.templelawreview.org/article/blowing-the-whist... .
There is a lot of confusion between "valuations" and what these athletes are actually getting. Also the importance to them as to what they are receiving.

The average basketball NIL deal in this source is $3,837. To some players its probably not worth the effort when they have to spend the time to make apperances.

https://www.marketingbrew.com/stories/2023/05/04/a-data-d...
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Posted: 12/29/2023 1:49 PM
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GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
Or we accept the fact that our budget is on par with Bowling Green and that's the types of recruits and results we should expect moving forward.
👆

Start writing checks or quiet down….

This wasn't meant to be a d*ck measuring contest. Just a statement of the reality of the situation specifically as it pertains to buying productive bigs.

I can and do send $$ but it doesn't have enough 0s to move the needle in any appreciable way.

Boals understands the reality better than any of us and it's why I think you see him going after Wiznitzer and Ike in the portal (high risk high reward but affordable) and instead focusing resources on 4 year bigs like Clayton and Evans and loading up on more abundant and affordable wings/guards.

It may or may not ultimately work out but it's the situation we find ourselves in unless you know of someone with lots more 0s than me.
I don’t think any of your posts about the subject matter come across that way. It’s an accurate assessment of the situation.

I’d also add that the sit rule likely impacted a lot of decisions for many schools this past portal season. In our case as a school with limitations; we were connected to Javonte Brown. Given he was initially ruled ineligible due to being a two-time transfer, I imagine Boals was only going to go so high for a guy to sit. Had he been eligible right away, perhaps Brown is a Bobcat.

Scouting will be more important than ever and finding diamonds at the lower levels might be vital. BG did a great job with this season in Marcus Hill (JUCO).
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