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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Load Management
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giacomo
5/23/2023 7:42 AM
https://pge.post-gazette.com/.pf/showstory/202305230012/3

Joel Embiid wins the MVP and only plays 66 out of 82 games. What if you drive your kid six hours from Pittsburgh to Philly to watch him play and he sits out?
Last Edited: 5/23/2023 7:43:41 AM by giacomo
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shabamon
5/23/2023 8:50 AM
The key is to not go to the second leg of a back to back.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
5/23/2023 9:05 AM
giacomo wrote:expand_more
https://pge.post-gazette.com/.pf/showstory/202305230012/3

Joel Embiid wins the MVP and only plays 66 out of 82 games. What if you drive your kid six hours from Pittsburgh to Philly to watch him play and he sits out?
What if playing an 82 game season as a 7'3 center reduces the length of your career by 3 seasons? Would the Sixers franchise and Sixers fans trade extra years of Embiid for more games per season? Should Embiid be willing to give up the extra earnings?

These are organization level decisions made to put the team and players in the best position to win in the playoffs. Does that suck for a fan who drove 6 hours? Sure. But that doesn't make it any less rational.
Last Edited: 5/23/2023 9:07:56 AM by Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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giacomo
5/23/2023 9:06 AM
I understand the need to rest guys in a long season, especially if you have a shot at winning a championship. However, you have the entertainment aspect at work as well. You pay a lot of money to see Barbra Streisand and Mary Jones comes out.
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Victory
5/23/2023 9:40 AM
I don't know what you do about this. To me it is obvious that if you wanted a system where you were actually trying to find the best team you would look to find that team over 6 months and not a week like you did in nearly all sports leagues around the world 100 years ago. But capitalism gets in the way of doing it that way. Which in the end causes the problem you are mentioning but it hurts them in the pocketbook less than doing things a more reasonable way.

Think of football or basketball and put the worst team over the last 40 years against the best. What are the chances of the 2008 Detroit Lions beating the 1985 Chicago Bears? That's a mismatch. That's close to a 100:1 shot. Now think of baseball. Baseball is a game where randomness plays a huge role. Is the worst team beating the best a big deal? No it happens all the time. In a series between them during the season a sweep by the better team maybe isn't even the most likely outcome. You'd probably think the worst team getting 1 of the 3 is just about as, if not more, likely. One game is almost totally meaningless when it comes to finding the better team. But it is also a game where you can play every day for months so you have what could be a statistically relevant 162 game season. Do you use that? No, not really. You let half the teams into the playoffs and then decide things with single game play-ins and almost meaningless 7-game series. Why intentionally decide the champion almost entirely by luck instead of actually trying to find the best team? That is very much by design. But, even in the era when all 162 games mattered for first place rather than just making the playoffs, players that were healthy all year still almost always took a few games off because even then it was beneficial to the team as a whole.

Baseball hasn't solved its revenue disparity issues. So if you actually had to field one of the very, very best teams to have a realistic shot at the title most fans would enter the season knowing that their team is probably irrelevant most years. By September 1 nearly all fans would know their team is irrelevant. Baseball has found it easier to tackle these issues by intentionally untethering the requirement for fielding an above average team to having a realistic chance at winning the championship. Football is a game where the best team usually wins so a one and done playoff system actually eliminates the mediocre better than MLB's playoffs. The NBA has 7 game series and while the best teams doesn't win one game quite as much as football it is unlikely for a mediocre team to win 4 series over 7 games in a row.

In a world where sports are competing with all sorts of other media the best way to get the eyeballs of the most casual fans is to decide it fast and dirty and maybe you can hold their attention for a few days. But you still go through the regular season which is long and drawn out to make money off of the most serious fans for half of the year. But at the same time you are intentionally selling the playoffs as the only thing that really matters. If you do that you will have this load management. The only way to stop this is to stop selling quick and dirty championships as the only thing that matters. Yes, its better to finish first than second but its also better to finish third than fourth. And it is better to outperform another team over 80 games than over 7. If you want to stop this it all has to matter. As Herm Edwards famously once said you should, "Play to win the game." IMO, my extremely analytical mind would rather see things that way. But it isn't what the league is selling on purpose and I don't see much of a way around occasionally having players take off regular season games. It is just very obviously part of the best strategy.
Last Edited: 5/23/2023 12:16:39 PM by Victory
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Andrew Ruck
5/23/2023 10:24 AM
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
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OUVan
5/23/2023 11:28 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
I think this nails it. All you have to do is look at the NHL. They play a similar schedule and had 116 players play in 82+ games compared to the NBA's 10 players who played in 82+ games.
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Victory
5/23/2023 11:44 AM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
I think this nails it. All you have to do is look at the NHL. They play a similar schedule and had 116 players play in 82+ games compared to the NBA's 10 players who played in 82+ games.
It isn't really fair to compare the NHL to the NBA. The NHL allows in game substitutions and the subs are done by lines. There are four lines switching in and out and they are usually out on the ice for less than a minute. If basketball had 15 man rosters and the game were structured so that all 5 guys switched out in lines constantly and if you sat out your team was down a man and had odd rotations for the whole game and the best players usually only played 20 of the 48 minutes on a normal evening you wouldn't see much load management done by intentionally sitting out entire games. The starting Goalie doesn't skate the entire ice and almost never gets subbed for another goalie during live action. They often do play the entire game. But this position is almost like a catcher in baseball where the backup actually starting to save the legs of the starter is common. But even with that the league leaders in minutes played are mostly goalies. There is load management in hockey. It is just more fundamentally built into the structure of how the game is subbed.
Last Edited: 5/23/2023 12:19:03 PM by Victory
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giacomo
5/23/2023 12:22 PM
All good points, but can’t get over the star entertainment factor. Think about Golden State playing in Cleveland when the Cavs sucked. A smart move to rest Steph Curry in a meaningless game. But how many people drove many miles and paid big bucks to see him? Maybe he plays, but they reduce his minutes and it’s a good compromise.
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BillyTheCat
5/23/2023 12:40 PM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
I think this nails it. All you have to do is look at the NHL. They play a similar schedule and had 116 players play in 82+ games compared to the NBA's 10 players who played in 82+ games.
Check the minutes an average hockey player logs on the ice in a game! Many times they have to do mandatory cardio after a game because they do not get a required minutes of ice time to stay in shape.

The average NHL player plays less 1/3 of a game. Defensemen average 20 min of a game while forwards play an average of 15 min a game. Most minutes ever played in an NHL game is less than 2 periods.
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GoCats105
5/23/2023 4:05 PM
Victory wrote:expand_more
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
I think this nails it. All you have to do is look at the NHL. They play a similar schedule and had 116 players play in 82+ games compared to the NBA's 10 players who played in 82+ games.
It isn't really fair to compare the NHL to the NBA. The NHL allows in game substitutions and the subs are done by lines. There are four lines switching in and out and they are usually out on the ice for less than a minute. If basketball had 15 man rosters and the game were structured so that all 5 guys switched out in lines constantly and if you sat out your team was down a man and had odd rotations for the whole game and the best players usually only played 20 of the 48 minutes on a normal evening you wouldn't see much load management done by intentionally sitting out entire games. The starting Goalie doesn't skate the entire ice and almost never gets subbed for another goalie during live action. They often do play the entire game. But this position is almost like a catcher in baseball where the backup actually starting to save the legs of the starter is common. But even with that the league leaders in minutes played are mostly goalies. There is load management in hockey. It is just more fundamentally built into the structure of how the game is subbed.
There's also A LOT more violence and contact in hockey, so that argument is irrelevant. The toll on your body is much, much worse regardless of how often you get subbed in and out. And playoff positioning in hockey is a crap shoot (this year's playoffs are evidence of that), so why not play 82+ games?
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
5/23/2023 7:01 PM
Isn't it basically an open secret that the NHL has a serious problem with painkiller addiction and that team doctors prescribe torodol like it's candy?

Not sure the culture in the NHL around playing hurt is worth lionizing.
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Victory
5/23/2023 10:15 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
I think this nails it. All you have to do is look at the NHL. They play a similar schedule and had 116 players play in 82+ games compared to the NBA's 10 players who played in 82+ games.
It isn't really fair to compare the NHL to the NBA. The NHL allows in game substitutions and the subs are done by lines. There are four lines switching in and out and they are usually out on the ice for less than a minute. If basketball had 15 man rosters and the game were structured so that all 5 guys switched out in lines constantly and if you sat out your team was down a man and had odd rotations for the whole game and the best players usually only played 20 of the 48 minutes on a normal evening you wouldn't see much load management done by intentionally sitting out entire games. The starting Goalie doesn't skate the entire ice and almost never gets subbed for another goalie during live action. They often do play the entire game. But this position is almost like a catcher in baseball where the backup actually starting to save the legs of the starter is common. But even with that the league leaders in minutes played are mostly goalies. There is load management in hockey. It is just more fundamentally built into the structure of how the game is subbed.
There's also A LOT more violence and contact in hockey, so that argument is irrelevant. The toll on your body is much, much worse regardless of how often you get subbed in and out. And playoff positioning in hockey is a crap shoot (this year's playoffs are evidence of that), so why not play 82+ games?
This has next to nothing to do with what I said
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BillyTheCat
5/24/2023 1:05 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
I think this nails it. All you have to do is look at the NHL. They play a similar schedule and had 116 players play in 82+ games compared to the NBA's 10 players who played in 82+ games.
It isn't really fair to compare the NHL to the NBA. The NHL allows in game substitutions and the subs are done by lines. There are four lines switching in and out and they are usually out on the ice for less than a minute. If basketball had 15 man rosters and the game were structured so that all 5 guys switched out in lines constantly and if you sat out your team was down a man and had odd rotations for the whole game and the best players usually only played 20 of the 48 minutes on a normal evening you wouldn't see much load management done by intentionally sitting out entire games. The starting Goalie doesn't skate the entire ice and almost never gets subbed for another goalie during live action. They often do play the entire game. But this position is almost like a catcher in baseball where the backup actually starting to save the legs of the starter is common. But even with that the league leaders in minutes played are mostly goalies. There is load management in hockey. It is just more fundamentally built into the structure of how the game is subbed.
There's also A LOT more violence and contact in hockey, so that argument is irrelevant. The toll on your body is much, much worse regardless of how often you get subbed in and out. And playoff positioning in hockey is a crap shoot (this year's playoffs are evidence of that), so why not play 82+ games?
They also wear pads. NBA players bang a lot, are bigger, stronger, weigh a hell of a lot more, and hit a hard floor and objects with NO protection.
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OUVan
5/24/2023 1:06 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
I think this nails it. All you have to do is look at the NHL. They play a similar schedule and had 116 players play in 82+ games compared to the NBA's 10 players who played in 82+ games.
Check the minutes an average hockey player logs on the ice in a game! Many times they have to do mandatory cardio after a game because they do not get a required minutes of ice time to stay in shape.

The average NHL player plays less 1/3 of a game. Defensemen average 20 min of a game while forwards play an average of 15 min a game. Most minutes ever played in an NHL game is less than 2 periods.
Are you really trying to equate the minutes a hockey player plays versus basketball? Let me know the next time you see a hockey team go with a 7 or 8 man rotation? Hockey is ten times more physical than basketball. Look at the players opposite the ball and they are just standing there. When a hockey player is on the ice he is going 100% at almost all times. The exception being power plays which more or less resembles a basketball possession. 20 minutes of hockey is significantly more taxing than 35 minutes of NBA basketball. Plus they play through injuries that NBA players would be out weeks with. But that's neither here nor there. His point is valid. 30 years ago the number of players playing a full slate was 5 times what it is today. Teams are punting the regular season because they know all they have to be is top 10.
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BillyTheCat
5/24/2023 1:15 PM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
It is a consequence of making the regular season pretty meaningless. I don't like the ever expanding playoff field we have seen in every sport, but if you are going to do it, I am in favor of a playoff format very heavy in favor of the better seeds. Something like in the 1/8, the 1 seed starts with a 2-0 game lead. 2/7 a 1-0 game lead. Give even more than just 1 home game than the opponent, etc. You've got to make the seeding matter.
I think this nails it. All you have to do is look at the NHL. They play a similar schedule and had 116 players play in 82+ games compared to the NBA's 10 players who played in 82+ games.
Check the minutes an average hockey player logs on the ice in a game! Many times they have to do mandatory cardio after a game because they do not get a required minutes of ice time to stay in shape.

The average NHL player plays less 1/3 of a game. Defensemen average 20 min of a game while forwards play an average of 15 min a game. Most minutes ever played in an NHL game is less than 2 periods.
Are you really trying to equate the minutes a hockey player plays versus basketball? Let me know the next time you see a hockey team go with a 7 or 8 man rotation? Hockey is ten times more physical than basketball. Look at the players opposite the ball and they are just standing there. When a hockey player is on the ice he is going 100% at almost all times. The exception being power plays which more or less resembles a basketball possession. 20 minutes of hockey is significantly more taxing than 35 minutes of NBA basketball. Plus they play through injuries that NBA players would be out weeks with. But that's neither here nor there. His point is valid. 30 years ago the number of players playing a full slate was 5 times what it is today. Teams are punting the regular season because they know all they have to be is top 10.
NO, i was simply pointing out (with facts) that hockey players do not spend as much time on the ice as some here thought. Every sport has different aspects that put stress on a body more than another sport. Basketball has more stress injuries and joint injuries. But, I'll digress Hockey is the toughest game in the world, and the fact that so many play full seasons makes them the toughest men in the world. To hell with the MJ vs. LeBron comparisons, they couldn't hold a candle to a 3rd liner on the Jackets.
Last Edited: 5/24/2023 1:18:16 PM by BillyTheCat
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rpbobcat
5/24/2023 3:57 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I'll digress Hockey is the toughest game in the world, and the fact that so many play full seasons makes them the toughest men in the world. To hell with the MJ vs. LeBron comparisons, they couldn't hold a candle to a 3rd liner on the Jackets.
I won't argue that hockey is the toughest game.

But (you knew that was coming)

Wrestling is not a game, and in my humble opinion,
college wrestling is the toughest sport.
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
5/26/2023 6:23 AM
rpbobcat wrote:expand_more
I'll digress Hockey is the toughest game in the world, and the fact that so many play full seasons makes them the toughest men in the world. To hell with the MJ vs. LeBron comparisons, they couldn't hold a candle to a 3rd liner on the Jackets.
I won't argue that hockey is the toughest game.

But (you knew that was coming)

Wrestling is not a game, and in my humble opinion,
college wrestling is the toughest sport.
I lived on a floor with a bunch of the wrestling team in Boyd my Freshman year.

They were definitely tough and the things I saw them doing to make weight were pretty crazy. Hard to debate this based on what I saw.
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JSF
9/14/2023 2:06 AM
Rule changes afoot.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38386013/how-nba-new-...
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M.D.W.S.T
9/14/2023 9:12 AM
JSF wrote:expand_more
I mean, the idea is in the right place - putting a threshold on games played to be eligible for awards is long overdue, but how do they plan on policing this?

Teams are just going to put "Sick", "Muscle Strain"... are they going to run down to the locker room and test someones stool for road game ailments?

" YUP. ITS RUNNY. All good here! "
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Andrew Ruck
9/14/2023 9:19 AM
This is fascinating. Very tough thing to mandate and police. The true answer is making the regular season matter more. The consequences of letting most teams in the playoffs. If you must stick to your loose playoff standards then at least find ways to weight the seeds and make them important. Byes. Best of 5 series with the top seed getting an automatic 1-0 start. All home games. Etc.
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71 BOBCAT
9/15/2023 1:25 PM
Fans have a right to see all players be available for every game. Back in the Magic Johnson Days the Lakers were fined as Magic was held out for a game in Sacramento.





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