Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: 2013-14 OOC Schedule
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OU_Country
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Posted: 9/3/2013 3:05 PM
You're right, I did miss your point.  I agree that there ought to be a way to schedule more "names" or at least more teams that are within earshot of Athens.  BUT...it takes two to tango, and I don't know the first thing about the scheduling process.  I just wish we'd get some more games with schools that are more regionally located.  For example, instead of Alabama A&M, why not play Cleveland State, or Wright State?  Evansville is good in my eyes, simply because I could envision a road trip to go visit their arena if there is a return game. 

And I'm sure someone else knows the reasons why, but not playing Marshall makes zero sense to me.


I always enjoy the conversations about scheduling, and I agree that if they want to get to "the next level" where we are discussed in the likes of VCU, Butler, etc, that the OOC has to get a bit better.  I really feel that JC knows that, and I hope we'll see some things done on that front next year as he gets out from under some commitments made prior to his arrival.
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 9/3/2013 3:39 PM
I have a feeling to get a "power conference" team to come to The Convo, Ohio would have to pay them a lot of money. I realize Ohio would stand to make more money by increased attendance, but I suspect those teams are looking for so much that those increased revenues wouldn't even come close to making up for the extra cost. The athletic department and basketball program probably feel better about putting the money into other things. It's a tough call.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 9/3/2013 4:45 PM
Ball State just announced a 2 for 1 with Utah and a game with Marquette on the schedule. Unfortunately, Butler faithful finally got their way and BSU was dropped as the Buttdogs feel they need more marquee names as they ascend to the next level. I am sure that means they will e playing NC A&T, Norfolk State and those......could have kept BSU in place and got the road wins with little cost and a RPI boost from playing on the road rather than do what every other high major does bringing in Little Sisters of the Poor and Nowhere State in the month of November/December

We do need to upgrade the schedule. I understand what we went through with JG coming on board but by the time he had a senior laden team I would have thought we would have upgraded and taken a run at things.
OhioStunter
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Posted: 9/3/2013 11:34 PM
brucecuth wrote:expand_more
No teams with any pizazz...none that will attract the casual fan.  And then they'll wonder why they don't get bigger crowds.

Don't our coach and AD have any connections to get just one "name" opponent to the convo every year or two?  Have we at least tried to call John Groce?  Xavier?  Bob McKillop at Davidson?  Penn...or for that matter, Harvard?  Northwestern?  St. Joes?  Both St. Joes and Davidson have Columbus kids playing for 'em.   Did anyone even think to call VCU?  They got a kid from Gahanna who'll probably start this year...wouldn't  it be fun to see his neighbor Stevie Taylor go against him...and a name coach in Shaka Smart?

Yes, I know Mercer went to the NCAA, but I bet if I walked down Court Street right now, no one else would.  First thing I heard in my freshman journalism class at OU was names make news.  This home sched is full of no-names...and certainly won't make much news...

Alabama A&M?  Heidelberg?  Who drew this up, Thad Matta? 


Cal Poly dropped out and a non D1 team was needed for the exemption for the tourney, thus Heidelberg. Of the 7 non-conf home games vs D1 schools, 5 are teams that played in the post season last year. 
JSF
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Posted: 9/4/2013 9:35 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
And I'm sure someone else knows the reasons why, but not playing Marshall makes zero sense to me.


Temporary thing. The series will resume.

brucecuth wrote:expand_more
But I'm beginning to wonder if Schaus (particularly Schaus) and Christian even try. I'd love Arkley to sit down and do a story about scheduling, and ask about each team I mentioned. I will bet we've never called half of 'em. And if they did call Groce, did they put on a full court press? Did they make it clear they would do whatever it took, and will not take no for an answer? Or if on the first call, Groce said, gee, I dunno, I'll have to think about it, did they hang up the phone and never follow up, and instead just waited for Groce to call them?


(sighs) We do this every year. Groce has zero interest- none- and zero reason to bring the Illini to Athens. It's not a matter of making his phone ring off the hook; you can't nag a coach into bringing their team into town. Would George Thomas even allow it? Doubtful. You'd bet we haven't called half those teams? How much? I'd love some of your money. Xavier won't come to Athens. Period. Remember when we played them a few years back? It was a money game. That's how X sees us. Dayton, to name another, wants a 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 like they're on some higher level than we.

Scheduling isn't a matter of simply calling and asking. Teams like Ohio are in a position of no leverage. We don't have the program strength to entice the better programs to come to Athens and risk a loss. To get a top team to come to Athens, we'd have to pay in the seven figures or give up multiple away dates for no money. Neither of these are good ideas.

People see the schedule and assume our staff is lazy or a pushover. That's not correct, and it's insulting to the men in charge who have job that is harder than it should be.
Last Edited: 9/4/2013 9:43:10 AM by JSF
shabamon
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Posted: 9/4/2013 10:15 AM
brucecuth wrote:expand_more
I'd love Arkley to sit down and do a story about scheduling, and ask about each team I mentioned.  I will bet we've never called half of 'em.  And if they did call Groce, did they put on a full court press?  Did they make it clear they would do whatever it took, and will not take no for an answer?  Or if on the first call, Groce said, gee, I dunno, I'll have to think about it, did they hang up the phone and never follow up, and instead just waited for Groce to call them? 
       


An angle naming specific teams would not be necessary, but I would be very interested in reading an Arkley piece about basketball scheduling strategy.
Ozcat
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Posted: 9/4/2013 11:00 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=brucecuth]That said, I'm rather disappointed to see Heidelberg on the schedule.  I'm sure it's because someone backed out at the last minute, but I don't like seeing D-II schools on the regular season slate.

We wish they were D-II.  Not quite.  The 'Berg plays with Capital and Otterbein in D-III land.  Yippee.

I grew up in Tiffin, and this will be the first time I can finally say I've seen the Fighting Student Princes in action.  I wish it wasn't so . . .
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Posted: 9/4/2013 1:03 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
And I'm sure someone else knows the reasons why, but not playing Marshall makes zero sense to me.


Temporary thing. The series will resume.

But I'm beginning to wonder if Schaus (particularly Schaus) and Christian even try. I'd love Arkley to sit down and do a story about scheduling, and ask about each team I mentioned. I will bet we've never called half of 'em. And if they did call Groce, did they put on a full court press? Did they make it clear they would do whatever it took, and will not take no for an answer? Or if on the first call, Groce said, gee, I dunno, I'll have to think about it, did they hang up the phone and never follow up, and instead just waited for Groce to call them?


(sighs) We do this every year. Groce has zero interest- none- and zero reason to bring the Illini to Athens. It's not a matter of making his phone ring off the hook; you can't nag a coach into bringing their team into town. Would George Thomas even allow it? Doubtful. You'd bet we haven't called half those teams? How much? I'd love some of your money. Xavier won't come to Athens. Period. Remember when we played them a few years back? It was a money game. That's how X sees us. Dayton, to name another, wants a 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 like they're on some higher level than we.

Scheduling isn't a matter of simply calling and asking. Teams like Ohio are in a position of no leverage. We don't have the program strength to entice the better programs to come to Athens and risk a loss. To get a top team to come to Athens, we'd have to pay in the seven figures or give up multiple away dates for no money. Neither of these are good ideas.

People see the schedule and assume our staff is lazy or a pushover. That's not correct, and it's insulting to the men in charge who have job that is harder than it should be.


(sighs...smiles...scratches head) Great attitude, and mixed message.  First you seem to say that our staff tries harder than I think, but then you indicate that we shouldn't even bother because we couldn't get a name team to come to Athens under circumstances you deem acceptable.  And I'm the guy who in another thread told people not to get their hopes up about Athens HS QB Joey Burrow coming to Ohio!  Where's The Optimist when I need him LOL...

I dunno, maybe you're right (personally, I don't think so).  But if you are, it's certainly a wake up call to everyone on this board who believes this team can rise to the "next level"  We'll never do so by simply bringing in the same mid level no-names year after year.  They may be good teams, but they're no-names.  

I continue to think that Schaus, with all the contacts made over decades in this business must have some favors he can call in.  Christian should too.  Home scheduling is basically sales, and the best sales people always seem to find a way to close even the toughest transactions.  Perhaps I should have said "be more imaginative" than work harder in my previous comments.  

So you wanna take my money?  I was speaking rhetorically, but fine, name your stakes.  However, I'll determine what the proof is.  No offense, but some guy on the Internet saying he "knows" they've called s particular coach or athletic director is not proof by any stretch of the imagination. 
Last Edited: 9/4/2013 2:08:31 PM by brucecuth
JSF
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Posted: 9/4/2013 2:22 PM
brucecuth wrote:expand_more
[First you seem to say that our staff tries harder than I think, but then you indicate that we shouldn't even bother because we couldn't get a name team to come to Athens under circumstances you deem acceptable.


That was not my intention. The staff does work very hard, but that doesn't change how challenging it is. I did not say they shouldn't bother and I did not say they do not. But you're as likely to move a mountain as you are to get Xavier to come to The Convo for a 1-and-1. 

Quote:expand_more
But if you are, it's certainly a wake up call to everyone on this board who believes this team can rise to the "next level"  We'll never do so by simply bringing in the same mid level no-names year after year.  They may be good teams, but they're no-names.


It should not. The only way- the only way- to get to "the next level" is to have sustained success in March. It took Gonzaga and Butler multiple deep runs in the NCAA Tournament before they could start reeling in bigger fish. They won't come unless it helps their computer number or their checkbook. 

Quote:expand_more
I continue to think that Schaus, with all the contacts made over decades in this business must have some favors he can call in.  Christian should too.


It would be nice, but the climate works against that. Schools would occasionally do someone a solid, go to a smaller school's gym, and get beat. There's too much pressure, too much awareness, for that to happen again.

Quote:expand_more
Home scheduling is basically sales, and the best sales people always seem to find a way to close even the toughest transactions.  Perhaps I should have said "be more imaginative" than work harder in my previous comments. 


That's fair. I should say it's not impossible to get big schools in, but the price is higher than we are and should be willing to pay.  

Quote:expand_more
No offense, but some guy on the Internet saying he "knows" they've called s particular coach or athletic director is not proof by any stretch of the imagination. 


YOU DON'T KNOW WHO I AM?!?

Seriously, though, there's a number of people who can vouch for me.
anorris
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Posted: 9/4/2013 2:45 PM
Recall Kentucky @ Robert Morris last March. I'm quite sure every major-program head coach and AD watching that simply reaffirmed that playing such road games has absolutely zero upside for those with enough money that they don't have to play them.

The ONLY way to fix this is NCAA involvement requiring equal home/away scheduling (which still may not fix it, and would kill a lot of programs that rely on money-game cash), or to find a way to heavily factor such scheduling into NCAA at large bids and seeding.
OU_Country
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Posted: 9/4/2013 3:09 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
People see the schedule and assume our staff is lazy or a pushover. That's not correct, and it's insulting to the men in charge who have job that is harder than it should be.


shabamon wrote:expand_more
An angle naming specific teams would not be necessary, but I would be very interested in reading an Arkley piece about basketball scheduling strategy.


Agreed on both fronts.



anorris wrote:expand_more
Recall Kentucky @ Robert Morris last March. I'm quite sure every major-program head coach and AD watching that simply reaffirmed that playing such road games has absolutely zero upside for those with enough money that they don't have to play them.

The ONLY way to fix this is NCAA involvement requiring equal home/away scheduling (which still may not fix it, and would kill a lot of programs that rely on money-game cash), or to find a way to heavily factor such scheduling into NCAA at large bids and seeding.


I've often thought that the NCAA should require a home and home, or a 2 for 1 as a minimum for all scheduling but of course that isn't possible or practical.  I'm not sure what the answer is, but I've always said it's ridiculous to talk about non-conf SOS in context with at-large conversations if schools are not REQUIRED to play some road games against the "smaller" schools.  Why not say last year's RPI top 100 have to play 2 road games a year at sub 100 opponents?  That means road games, not neutral site games.
anorris
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Posted: 9/4/2013 4:23 PM
Would make scheduling even more of a tremendous puzzle than it already is, especially if a few return teams you were counting on to be in one category end up in the other. I know basketball isn't scheduled as far out as football, but that kind of hard cutoff seems tough to do. I'd be in favor of tweaking some formulas to make it advantageous to play on the road a bit more, and let the market figure out the individual games. Gotta have something to counter-balance the $$ advantage of just staying home.
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Posted: 9/4/2013 4:25 PM
"Why not say last year's RPI top 100 have to play 2 road games a year at sub 100 opponents?  That means road games, not neutral site games."

Now that's creative, thinking outside the box...
OU_Country
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Posted: 9/5/2013 11:55 AM
anorris wrote:expand_more
Would make scheduling even more of a tremendous puzzle than it already is, especially if a few return teams you were counting on to be in one category end up in the other. I know basketball isn't scheduled as far out as football, but that kind of hard cutoff seems tough to do. I'd be in favor of tweaking some formulas to make it advantageous to play on the road a bit more, and let the market figure out the individual games. Gotta have something to counter-balance the $$ advantage of just staying home.


I agree that it would be logistically difficult. I just get would up come at-large time when I hear about "mid-majors" getting left out for Big East/Big Ten schools that they could, and would beat on their home floor or a neutral floor more often than not.  Because the big boys have no incentive to travel, they don't.  But it all boils down to the fact that the NCAA cares less about competition than they do about dollars.

An alternative idea could be to use a 3 or 5 year average RPI in my original idea of the required road games.  That might allow for easier scheduling logistics.  I know it's a pipe dream, but it still fires me up.  Ohio (and Akron, and Kent, etc.) could beat a number of "power conference" schools inside The Convo if given the chance. 
bornacatfan
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Posted: 9/5/2013 12:54 PM
Not to beat the proverbial dead horse but this is exactly the reason why the NCAA should threated to expand the tourney to 128 unless the constituents of the Big 6 conferences come on the road to play 6 or so games OOC.  I have long maintained that there is no impetus to come out of the friendly comfines unless mad e to do so.

We have rehashed to home court advantage with sheer numbers and fromthe officials perpsective. We have talked about the difficulty of getting a home game from a power conference school and the inequities in scheduling. Time to expand the tourney to include the regular season AND tourney winners of the not power conferences or force them to come out and play.

RMU vs UK is an anomaly from a team that mentally checked out folowing loss of a key player and piss poor recruiting at several positions... in real life many willhold it up to be an example but that is just because the real reasons for playing at RMU are lost in the loss on the road.
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Posted: 9/5/2013 2:06 PM
My look at this is more micro.  I look at what we have some control over.  Let's build a totally solid program such that we are a very attractive team for 'the bigs' to play.

Yes, to start, that will mean more away games vs. bigs than home games vs. bigs.  But hopefully that would turn around, leading to a nice slate at home.


As I write this, I think of kents's run.  Did that allow them to attract 'bigs' at home.  Then again, kents's facility is much smaller than the Convo (right?) and kents is not a residential school with a history of fine hoops...but we are.
JSF
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Posted: 9/5/2013 5:31 PM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
My look at this is more micro.  I look at what we have some control over.  Let's build a totally solid program such that we are a very attractive team for 'the bigs' to play.


Exactly.

Quote:expand_more
Yes, to start, that will mean more away games vs. bigs than home games vs. bigs.


Or, at the very least, neutral court games, right? But the powers that be prefer loading up on home dates.


Quote:expand_more
As I write this, I think of kents's run.  Did that allow them to attract 'bigs' at home.  Then again, kents's facility is much smaller than the Convo (right?) and kents is not a residential school with a history of fine hoops...but we are.


Nope, because Kent fell off as soon as they graduated that class. They didn't sustain, so it bore little fruit. And if they kept it up, maybe they could've been able to upgrade facilities...
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Posted: 9/6/2013 11:24 AM
Monroe Slavin wrote:expand_more
My look at this is more micro.  I look at what we have some control over.  Let's build a totally solid program such that we are a very attractive team for 'the bigs' to play.

Yes, to start, that will mean more away games vs. bigs than home games vs. bigs.  But hopefully that would turn around, leading to a nice slate at home.


As I write this, I think of kents's run.  Did that allow them to attract 'bigs' at home.  Then again, kents's facility is much smaller than the Convo (right?) and kents is not a residential school with a history of fine hoops...but we are.


You just had a 2nd round NCAA Appearance and a Sweet 16 Appearance. We built it, they didn't show.
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Posted: 9/6/2013 4:32 PM
Lost of good points by JSF, Brucecuth , Monroe & others. The scheduling many of us would like is not an easy task and I have no idea what has been explored and unsuccessful. But with the right circumstances, connections, and some creativity, it’s not impossible to get some big programs in here. In fact it has happened.  We had a home-away series with WVU for a while, we played DePaul here when they were a major power, and other schools like Kentucky & Virginia have visited.   Maybe a 2 for 1 is possible with the right teams. I’d do it in a heartbeat with top 25 teams. We’ve got Sports Admin. alum scattered everywhere, including AD’s to pursue for possible matches.  Can we get a home-away with Geno’s Bradley Braves? Maybe we’ve tried, I don’t know. Not a top 25 team but that one would be fun. How about a 4  team holiday mini tourney in the Convo in mid December when the students are still here? Should draw well  regardless of opponents. This probably won’t bring in a big name school but maybe a far West or Southern school is looking for a Eastern swing before the holidays on the way to New York or D.C.

One thing OHIO should do is play in Cleveland regularly. And maybe in Cincy too. Lots of alums would appreciate that and lots of high school talent there to promote our program. There are many ways that could happen.  In Cleveland one easy way is to play Clev St. home-away which we’ve done. We also played UC in Cleveland not that long ago and we played Kentucky (the Fears-Rondo matchup) in Cincy.  I was there for that. It was packed (mainly Kentucky fans but lots of OHIO fans too) and it was electric.

Probably lots of other creative options too. How about finding one other school in Ohio (Xavier, UC, OSU, etc.) to co-sponsor a 4 team 2 day mini tourney in Cleveland where the winners of game 1 play each other? Early December is usually a slow time and it might be more financially feasible to do it then.

Last Edited: 9/6/2013 9:35:33 PM by stub
JSF
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Posted: 9/6/2013 6:48 PM
The department at the time considered the UC game a failure. Dec. 30 wasn't the best day to have the game, though.
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Posted: 9/7/2013 1:35 AM
2 away for 1 home vs UC, Dayton, Xavier  - I have to think we have to have tried that - if not then OUr pride greater than OUr "smarts".

2 home for 1 away vs Cleve St, Wright St - if we have not offered - then the "smarts" part really slackin'.

tO$U Ever playing here again (or anywhere Ohio outside of Columbus) - out of Any possibility of OUr control - unless we get that Athens County state offices elections machine Super dosed.......(or tO$U goes into some unexpected period of serious BBall decline).

Regionals - WVA, Butler, W KY - I gotta think there are some 1 and 1 opportunities there - where's the "smarts"? 
JSF
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Posted: 9/7/2013 11:44 AM
RSBobcat wrote:expand_more
2 away for 1 home vs UC, Dayton, Xavier  - I have to think we have to have tried that - if not then OUr pride greater than OUr "smarts".


Why should we give Dayton a 2-for-1? Their program's not better than ours.

Quote:expand_more
2 home for 1 away vs Cleve St, Wright St - if we have not offered - then the "smarts" part really slackin'.


Cleveland State plays an annual series with Kent and Akron. Why would they do a 2-for-1 with us?

Quote:expand_more
Regionals - WVA, Butler, W KY - I gotta think there are some 1 and 1 opportunities there - where's the "smarts"? 


1-for-1 with WVU, Butler? You drunk?
RSBobcat
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Posted: 9/8/2013 11:07 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
2 away for 1 home vs UC, Dayton, Xavier  - I have to think we have to have tried that - if not then OUr pride greater than OUr "smarts".


Why should we give Dayton a 2-for-1? Their program's not better than ours.

2 home for 1 away vs Cleve St, Wright St - if we have not offered - then the "smarts" part really slackin'.


Cleveland State plays an annual series with Kent and Akron. Why would they do a 2-for-1 with us?

Regionals - WVA, Butler, W KY - I gotta think there are some 1 and 1 opportunities there - where's the "smarts"? 


1-for-1 with WVU, Butler? You drunk?


Yeah - I think I was. OK - 2 for 1 w/WVU & Butler. Per Dayton - How do you know? We have not played them since..... (not since anytime I can remember) - let's get it started then - a win there as good or better than win here. Per Cleve St - the argument you used per Dayton and us - only the other way around.

I don't see what we have to lose by risking some 2 aways for 1 home for some quality opponents - nuthin' but RPI upside typically. You see what Not doing that is getting us - Heidelberg, Morgans, Longwoods, ................. 
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Posted: 9/9/2013 12:32 PM
Now that NKU is a D1 team, I wouldn't mind a 2-for-1 or even 3-for-1 in our favor with them. Bank of Kentucky Center is a pretty nice arena, a lot of alums in the Cincinnati/NKY area, and it helps the recruiting in that area.
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Posted: 9/9/2013 6:09 PM
RSBobcat wrote:expand_more
I don't see what we have to lose by risking some 2 aways for 1 home for some quality opponents - nuthin' but RPI upside typically.


Well, money.
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