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Topic: At Kent
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The Optimist
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Posted: 11/4/2013 3:33 PM
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Jim Christian never failed to win 20 games.
 

Are we at where Kent was as a program back then? I would argue we are ahead of where they were at.

Eagle66
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Posted: 11/4/2013 4:01 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more

Jim Christian never failed to win 20 games.
 

Are we at where Kent was as a program back then? I would argue we are ahead of where they were at.


I also believe he failed to win an NCAA game those seasons.  They also got an 8 seed one year in the NCAA, not sure we're quite at that level yet.  I think this year will go a long way to telling us the future direction though.

 
100%Cat
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Posted: 11/4/2013 4:48 PM
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Call me crazy if you want, but I'm a little sick of this "won no NCAA games" stuff about Christian.  How many current coaches in this league have won a tourney game in the NCAA's for their current MAC team?  How many MAC teams, period, have won a tourney game in the NCAA's since 2000?  Kent won NCAA tourney games in '02, Central Mich won a game in '03. then not another NCAA tourney win until our run in '12 and win in '10.  Three teams from the MAC have won A game in the NCAA's since 2000.  Am I missing something or is that it?  I want post season success as much as anyone, but why are we acting like the MAC is on par with the Big Ten as far as post season expectations?  Let's face it, basically every MAC team that makes the NCAA's is going to be an underdog against whoever they play, and usually a substantial underdog.  Tim O'Shea made an NCAA tourney, would you rather have him than Jim Christian?

Let's also face it, John Groce was great...but he ain't coming back.
Last Edited: 11/4/2013 4:54:37 PM by 100%Cat
bobcat2nc
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Posted: 11/4/2013 5:08 PM
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100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Call me crazy if you want, but I'm a little sick of this "won no NCAA games" stuff about Christian.  How many current coaches in this league have won a tourney game in the NCAA's for their current MAC team?  How many MAC teams, period, have won a tourney game in the NCAA's since 2000?  Kent won NCAA tourney games in '02, Central Mich won a game in '03. then not another NCAA tourney win until our run in '12 and win in '10.  Three teams from the MAC have won A game in the NCAA's since 2000.  Am I missing something or is that it?  I want post season success as much as anyone, but why are we acting like the MAC is on par with the Big Ten as far as post season expectations?  Let's face it, basically every MAC team that makes the NCAA's is going to be an underdog against whoever they play, and usually a substantial underdog.  Tim O'Shea made an NCAA tourney, would you rather have him than Jim Christian?

Let's also face it, John Groce was great...but he ain't coming back.

Nicely said. 

 
The Optimist
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Posted: 11/4/2013 5:27 PM
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Eagle66 wrote:expand_more

Jim Christian never failed to win 20 games.
 

Are we at where Kent was as a program back then? I would argue we are ahead of where they were at.


I also believe he failed to win an NCAA game those seasons.  They also got an 8 seed one year in the NCAA, not sure we're quite at that level yet.  I think this year will go a long way to telling us the future direction though.

 

That is true. My point was more about the direction we are headed under Christian than what has been accomplished to date. Regarding Kent I feel Christian has MORE resources in place to succeed at Ohio than he did at Kent, but he still got it done there. I have seen a couple posts that we are not going to win 20 games this year. I know we lost a lot (and I lean towards the glass half full side of the table), but Christian always did a good job reloading at Kent. I would be disappointed if we did not win 20 games this year.

Since 04-05, we have had 5 20+ win season, 3 19 win seasons and just 1 losing season... Groce's 1st year.
Last Edited: 11/4/2013 5:35:37 PM by The Optimist
colobobcat66
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Posted: 11/4/2013 6:16 PM
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Eagle66 wrote:expand_more
Jim Christian never failed to win 20 games.

Are we at where Kent was as a program back then? I would argue we are ahead of where they were at.


I also believe he failed to win an NCAA game those seasons. They also got an 8 seed one year in the NCAA, not sure we're quite at that level yet. I think this year will go a long way to telling us the future direction though.
I'm not so sure that this season will tell us that much about the long term direction of the program under Christian. Too many new players and a lot of question marks in regards to leadership and scoring. If we have a really bad year- say 14 wins or less and most of the new guys have clearly disappointing years, then maybe we'll make some valid conclusions, but I wouldn't bet on that outcome.
The Optimist
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Posted: 11/4/2013 6:36 PM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
Jim Christian never failed to win 20 games.

Are we at where Kent was as a program back then? I would argue we are ahead of where they were at.


I also believe he failed to win an NCAA game those seasons. They also got an 8 seed one year in the NCAA, not sure we're quite at that level yet. I think this year will go a long way to telling us the future direction though.
I'm not so sure that this season will tell us that much about the long term direction of the program under Christian. Too many new players and a lot of question marks in regards to leadership and scoring. If we have a really bad year- say 14 wins or less and most of the new guys have clearly disappointing years, then maybe we'll make some valid conclusions, but I wouldn't bet on that outcome.

I don't think we have question marks about leadership. We have 5 seniors. All of whom have played some big minutes for us in big games.
Every year players in high school and college graduate and a new set of Seniors step up. I don't think it is realistic to assume no one on this team will step up and lead. I think it is very unrealistic to assume these 5 seniors are ready to roll over. We have a 4 year starter, we have multiple other guys who have started many games for us. Even our 2 newcomers are experienced at this level of play... We aren't young or inexperienced, we just don't have chemistry.
The big question mark for me is how our offensive and defensive identity. Last year's team had a very unique style of play. The way we played, it isn't something easily duplicated. Without considering how successful this team will be, I think it is obvious it is going to look different. That isn't really a good or bad thing though, IMO.
colobobcat66
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Posted: 11/4/2013 7:21 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
Jim Christian never failed to win 20 games.

Are we at where Kent was as a program back then? I would argue we are ahead of where they were at.


I also believe he failed to win an NCAA game those seasons. They also got an 8 seed one year in the NCAA, not sure we're quite at that level yet. I think this year will go a long way to telling us the future direction though.
I'm not so sure that this season will tell us that much about the long term direction of the program under Christian. Too many new players and a lot of question marks in regards to leadership and scoring. If we have a really bad year- say 14 wins or less and most of the new guys have clearly disappointing years, then maybe we'll make some valid conclusions, but I wouldn't bet on that outcome.

I don't think we have question marks about leadership. We have 5 seniors. All of whom have played some big minutes for us in big games.
Every year players in high school and college graduate and a new set of Seniors step up. I don't think it is realistic to assume no one on this team will step up and lead. I think it is very unrealistic to assume these 5 seniors are ready to roll over. We have a 4 year starter, we have multiple other guys who have started many games for us. Even our 2 newcomers are experienced at this level of play... We aren't young or inexperienced, we just don't have chemistry.
The big question mark for me is how our offensive and defensive identity. Last year's team had a very unique style of play. The way we played, it isn't something easily duplicated. Without considering how successful this team will be, I think it is obvious it is going to look different. That isn't really a good or bad thing though, IMO.
sorry, but seniority doesn't necessarily mean that you're a good leader. The fact that there has been a coaching change may have very well changed the leadership hierarchy. I don't even know that it even shows itself on the floor all the time. It could be in practice, after hours, in the weight room or whatever. I'll reserve judgement on that one until the season is well inderway.
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Posted: 11/4/2013 11:25 PM
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Let's face it, when you are a 12-13-14-15 seed, usually get your lunch handed to you in the NCAAs.  I'd say the low seeds are one of the primary reasons for the lack of success of the MAC in the tourney.  Let's face it, the last ten years of seen a steady decline in MAC basketball.  Until that changes we will continue to see the conference rep usually lose in the first round. 
Eagle66
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Posted: 11/5/2013 8:44 AM
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100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Call me crazy if you want, but I'm a little sick of this "won no NCAA games" stuff about Christian. How many current coaches in this league have won a tourney game in the NCAA's for their current MAC team? How many MAC teams, period, have won a tourney game in the NCAA's since 2000? Kent won NCAA tourney games in '02, Central Mich won a game in '03. then not another NCAA tourney win until our run in '12 and win in '10. Three teams from the MAC have won A game in the NCAA's since 2000. Am I missing something or is that it? I want post season success as much as anyone, but why are we acting like the MAC is on par with the Big Ten as far as post season expectations? Let's face it, basically every MAC team that makes the NCAA's is going to be an underdog against whoever they play, and usually a substantial underdog. Tim O'Shea made an NCAA tourney, would you rather have him than Jim Christian?

Let's also face it, John Groce was great...but he ain't coming back.


I don't know anyone who is acting like the MAC post season expectations should be the same as the Big Ten or were asking for Groce back. I really like Coach Christian and I'm hoping for a long and successful run. But if you're going to point out that he never won less than 20 games at Kent, I'm going to point out that he didn't do much outside of the MAC with any of those teams. Which is too bad because he had some of the best teams during that time. But perhaps I was too narrow saying NCAA games... he's also 0-4 in the NIT. I'm looking forward to that trend being broken.

The Optimist wrote:expand_more
That is true. My point was more about the direction we are headed under Christian than what has been accomplished to date. Regarding Kent I feel Christian has MORE resources in place to succeed at Ohio than he did at Kent, but he still got it done there. I have seen a couple posts that we are not going to win 20 games this year. I know we lost a lot (and I lean towards the glass half full side of the table), but Christian always did a good job reloading at Kent. I would be disappointed if we did not win 20 games this year.

Since 04-05, we have had 5 20+ win season, 3 19 win seasons and just 1 losing season... Groce's 1st year.
I agree he definitely has more resources here than he did at Kent. I also agree in thinking we should win some where around 20 games this year. I was basing more on results prior to where we were compared to where Kent was when JC took over. Kent had finished first or second in the MAC for four straight years and made an elite 8 just before he showed up. I don't think we're ahead of that.
Last Edited: 11/5/2013 8:52:54 AM by Eagle66
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