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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: And the beat goes on for Grambling...
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Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 10/23/2013 2:05 PM
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Some of you have noticed the discussion on the football board about Grambling's troubles, with an insurrection among its football players, etc.

In basketball, Grambling finished 0-28 last year, and is suffering APR penalties. 

Hard to understand how a once proud athletic program has sunk so low.
Ohio69
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Posted: 10/23/2013 3:42 PM
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Seems like a strange coincidence but I tried to view Grambling's athletic department web page today and it is 404 -- not found.

I find it interesting that the students have twice voted down an additional fee to support the athletic department budget.  And I wonder if that's a harbinger for things to come throughout higher education.  At least at smaller universities.
Last Edited: 10/23/2013 3:42:51 PM by Ohio69
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 10/23/2013 3:48 PM
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Good point, 69.  That's the 800 lb gorilla in the mid major room that no one wants to acknowledge.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/23/2013 8:53 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Good point, 69.  That's the 800 lb gorilla in the mid major room that no one wants to acknowledge.
 hmm . . . just what do you have in mind?  At Ohio students don't have a vote on such matters, other than to go somewhere else if they think the fees are too high or not distributed in a manner they think fair.  So, it's certainly not an elephant in the room around here.  Ah . . . let's just drop down to FCS and give the extra money to basketball and volleyball and all will be right with the world. 
JSF
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Posted: 10/23/2013 9:08 PM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Good point, 69.  That's the 800 lb gorilla in the mid major room that no one wants to acknowledge.
 hmm . . . just what do you have in mind?  At Ohio students don't have a vote on such matters, other than to go somewhere else if they think the fees are too high or not distributed in a manner they think fair.  So, it's certainly not an elephant in the room around here.  Ah . . . let's just drop down to FCS and give the extra money to basketball and volleyball and all will be right with the world. 


Strawman much?
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/23/2013 10:15 PM
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JSF wrote:expand_more
Good point, 69.  That's the 800 lb gorilla in the mid major room that no one wants to acknowledge.
 hmm . . . just what do you have in mind?  At Ohio students don't have a vote on such matters, other than to go somewhere else if they think the fees are too high or not distributed in a manner they think fair.  So, it's certainly not an elephant in the room around here.  Ah . . . let's just drop down to FCS and give the extra money to basketball and volleyball and all will be right with the world. 


Strawman much?


Yes, I think McKinney is good at putting up Strawmen.  He's a good man, but he kind of has an obsession on this issue.  Me, I'm just sarcastic!   
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Posted: 10/24/2013 12:02 AM
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"Haves"/"Have Not's". As examples - Compare O$U, OHIO, and Grambling. Just make a list - of what each institution "Has", and what each institution "Has Not". Economic/Social/Political "Haves/Assets" for all three, as well as each institutions Economic/Social/Political "Has Not/Hurdles/Challenges". Any real surprises who has the toughest go here?
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 10/25/2013 2:59 PM
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OCF, that is absolutely NOT where I was going with my comments. 

My point was that mid majors and low majors tend to have a much higher percentage of their athletic budgets subsidized by mandatory student fees.  Top programs tend to have a much higher percentage of their budgets coming from private donations.  IMO, the programs with a higher percentage coming from private donors are more viable for the future.  Programs that depend so much more on mandatory student fees are vulnerable to the shifting currents of politics and policy.  I WANT Ohio to maintain a strong committment to athletics and even expand our budget in the future.  I'm just concerned that if attitudes about usage of student fees change, we could be in trouble on that front.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/25/2013 7:00 PM
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Jeff, instead of looking at the glass half-empty, let's look at the half-full side.  Starting in 2014, the MAC will receive a minimum of $12 million from the playoff system (once we kick out EMU, that'll be $1 million per school).  That money will make Ohio less dependent (not totally independent mind you) of student fees.  So, I see the pressure you speak of as lessening not increasing in years ahead.  (On a similar front, does anyone know how much Ohio is getting from last year's NIU Orange Bowl appearance?  At one point I heard it was to be split evenly among all MAC schools but then I heard that that wasn't correct and that NIU would get a bigger slice of the pie.)  In summary, Jeff I don't think the sky is falling yet, or is it imminent. 
Last Edited: 10/25/2013 7:01:27 PM by OhioCatFan
JSF
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Posted: 10/25/2013 7:31 PM
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He's still saying "all mid-majors" and you're still hearing "Ohio."
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Posted: 10/26/2013 11:45 AM
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I know some not everyone will like this statement, but I believe Ohio is closer to some BCS programs than we are to many mid-majors, including Grambling.

Grouping all non-BCS programs under the "mid-major" banner is misleading. We are spending 2,000,000 annually on men's hoops. That doesn't compare to some very big programs, but I think we are much more of a "have" than a "have not." 
brucecuth
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Posted: 10/26/2013 5:58 PM
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The Optimist wrote:expand_more
I know some not everyone will like this statement, but I believe Ohio is closer to some BCS programs than we are to many mid-majors, including Grambling.

Grouping all non-BCS programs under the "mid-major" banner is misleading. We are spending 2,000,000 annually on men's hoops. That doesn't compare to some very big programs, but I think we are much more of a "have" than a "have not." 


I don't know of anyone who thinks of Grambling as a mid major...the school is about the lowest of the low majors...
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Posted: 10/26/2013 6:28 PM
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brucecuth wrote:expand_more
I know some not everyone will like this statement, but I believe Ohio is closer to some BCS programs than we are to many mid-majors, including Grambling.
q
Grouping all non-BCS programs under the "mid-major" banner is misleading. We are spending 2,000,000 annually on men's hoops. That doesn't compare to some very big programs, but I think we are much more of a "have" than a "have not." 


I don't know of anyone who thinks of Grambling as a mid major...the school is about the lowest of the low majors...

 

Fair enough. If you want group everyone into High Major, Mid-Major and Low Major I think Ohio is closer on the High end of the mid section than the low side despite many who wish we were still trying to just pretend we are a little school that no one cares about.

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Posted: 10/27/2013 8:12 AM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
OCF, that is absolutely NOT where I was going with my comments.

My point was that mid majors and low majors tend to have a much higher percentage of their athletic budgets subsidized by mandatory student fees. Top programs tend to have a much higher percentage of their budgets coming from private donations. IMO, the programs with a higher percentage coming from private donors are more viable for the future. Programs that depend so much more on mandatory student fees are vulnerable to the shifting currents of politics and policy. I WANT Ohio to maintain a strong committment to athletics and even expand our budget in the future. I'm just concerned that if attitudes about usage of student fees change, we could be in trouble on that front.
Jeff simply go the the other threads, I got trashed for similar comments. But I take it one further with the fact fees are taxes.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/27/2013 10:33 AM
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Fees are not taxes.  Taxes are imposed by governments.  Ohio University used to plevy taxes on its land grant land but that was upon authorization of the Federal government.
Last Edited: 10/27/2013 10:34:34 AM by OhioCatFan
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/30/2013 2:08 PM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Fees are not taxes. Taxes are imposed by governments. Ohio University used to plevy taxes on its land grant land but that was upon authorization of the Federal government.
And OHIO University is a Government institution. Call it what you will, fees that are an attempt at raising revenue is a tax.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/30/2013 10:35 PM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Fees are not taxes. Taxes are imposed by governments. Ohio University used to levy taxes on its land grant land but that was upon authorization of the Federal government.


And OHIO University is a Government institution. Call it what you will, fees that are an attempt at raising revenue is a tax.


No, Ohio University is not per se a government institution, but by state law it is a "state assisted university."  There is actually an important legal distinction here.  In fact, this is the precise reason that it is responsible for its own budget which is only partially covered by state appropriations.  If Ohio University were a government institution, such as ODOT or the AG's office, state taxes would cover the entire budget.  
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Posted: 10/31/2013 9:50 AM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Fees are not taxes. Taxes are imposed by governments. Ohio University used to levy taxes on its land grant land but that was upon authorization of the Federal government.


And OHIO University is a Government institution. Call it what you will, fees that are an attempt at raising revenue is a tax.


No, Ohio University is not per se a government institution, but by state law it is a "state assisted university."  There is actually an important legal distinction here.  In fact, this is the precise reason that it is responsible for its own budget which is only partially covered by state appropriations.  If Ohio University were a government institution, such as ODOT or the AG's office, state taxes would cover the entire budget.  


State taxes don't cover entire budgets in many departments.  ODOT projects(including the beloved Nelsonville bypass) are heavily reliant on federal funding (derived from federal taxes of course).  And do we consider the employees of Ohio University state government employees...pensions covered by SERS I believe? 
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/31/2013 2:52 PM
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MedinaCat wrote:expand_more
Fees are not taxes. Taxes are imposed by governments. Ohio University used to levy taxes on its land grant land but that was upon authorization of the Federal government.


And OHIO University is a Government institution. Call it what you will, fees that are an attempt at raising revenue is a tax.


No, Ohio University is not per se a government institution, but by state law it is a "state assisted university."  There is actually an important legal distinction here.  In fact, this is the precise reason that it is responsible for its own budget which is only partially covered by state appropriations.  If Ohio University were a government institution, such as ODOT or the AG's office, state taxes would cover the entire budget.  


State taxes don't cover entire budgets in many departments.  ODOT projects(including the beloved Nelsonville bypass) are heavily reliant on federal funding (derived from federal taxes of course).  And do we consider the employees of Ohio University state government employees...pensions covered by SERS I believe? 


Yes, in some respects Ohio University employees are state employees and in other respects they are not.  This is a very complicated legal issue.  In terms of ODOT, I was speaking about the operating budget, not the funds used to construct roads, bridges, etc.  The Ohio University operating budget includes a lot of non-state money.  It's called tuition and fees.  In fact, the percentage of state dollars in OU's operating budget is less than it was 30 years ago.  When OU builds new buildings the funds come from a combining of state capital improvement funds, private donations, federal grants, etc.  Operating and construction budgets are two different animals. 
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