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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Two rule questions - high school rules
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cc-cat
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Posted: 1/11/2014 4:40 PM
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Two questions from my son's game:

1. after a made basket, the player inbounding the ball HANDED the ball into a teammate.  I thought that would be a violation as the the player in bounds touching the ball at the same time as the player out of bounds would, by definition.  make the ball out of bounds.

2. the ref called a foul on one of our players because he "dove" at a player shooting a 3-point shot.  The defender did not go to the ground and, the ref agreed, did not touch the shooter.  But he said it was dangerous for the defender to run low at the shooter.  Awarded the shooter three foul shots.

Thoughts? 
Alan Swank
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Posted: 1/11/2014 4:47 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
Two questions from my son's game:

1. after a made basket, the player inbounding the ball HANDED the ball into a teammate.  I thought that would be a violation as the the player in bounds touching the ball at the same time as the player out of bounds would, by definition.  make the ball out of bounds.

2. the ref called a foul on one of our players because he "dove" at a player shooting a 3-point shot.  The defender did not go to the ground and, the ref agreed, did not touch the shooter.  But he said it was dangerous for the defender to run low at the shooter.  Awarded the shooter three foul shots.

Thoughts? 


In one if both players were touching the ball at the same time, one inbounds, one out of bounds, I believe that would be a violation.

In two, no call at least in Grover.  You would have been laughed at for making that call.
cc-cat
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Posted: 1/12/2014 9:16 PM
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Any thoughts from any refs on this board.
UpSan Bobcat
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Posted: 1/13/2014 2:44 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
Two questions from my son's game:

1. after a made basket, the player inbounding the ball HANDED the ball into a teammate.  I thought that would be a violation as the the player in bounds touching the ball at the same time as the player out of bounds would, by definition.  make the ball out of bounds.

2. the ref called a foul on one of our players because he "dove" at a player shooting a 3-point shot.  The defender did not go to the ground and, the ref agreed, did not touch the shooter.  But he said it was dangerous for the defender to run low at the shooter.  Awarded the shooter three foul shots.

Thoughts? 

I took the officiating class but never followed through to get my reffing license and I'd say you're right on both.

1. I checked the NFHS rule book and don't see anything that addresses this exactly but it seems common sense that you can't hand the ball on an inbounds pass to someone. You can maybe combine some rules to assert this.
Rule 7-6-2 says: The throw-in pass shall not touch a teammate while it is on the out-of-bounds side of the throw-in boundary plane.
Rule 9-2-9 says: The thrower may penetrate the plane provided he does not touch the inbounds area or a player inbounds before the ball is released on the throw-in pass.

2. I don't see anything about this at all. There is no rule about not being able to move low or even a rule about dangerous plays. And in my opinion, I don't know why it would be any more dangerous for a guy to run a shooter low than in a normal way. One of the basketball rule fundamentals says: Personal fouls always involve illegal contact.

States can adopt additional rules to those in the NFHS rule book.
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 1/13/2014 2:55 PM
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These would be addressed in a case book, not necessarily the rules book.
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 1/13/2014 10:50 PM
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cc cat wrote:expand_more
. . . 2. the ref called a foul on one of our players because he "dove" at a player shooting a 3-point shot.  The defender did not go to the ground and, the ref agreed, did not touch the shooter.  But he said it was dangerous for the defender to run low at the shooter.  Awarded the shooter three foul shots. . . . 


I believe this ref is a first cousin of the guy who called the four-yard-line safety! 
Pete Chouteau
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Posted: 1/14/2014 11:34 PM
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I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once...

In case one, it is a violation, but frankly, if the possession is uncontested it is not critical to the outcome of the game and does not have to be enforced. A dead ball reminder should suffice.

In case two, if the "dive" caused the shooter to alter his shot in avoiding traumatic contact, then I think a foul might be warranted. The better call might have been a technical foul which would cover the unsportsmanlike conduct of the act. If such an act was allowed to occur, what other "make him flinch" techniques could be employed?

I could be entirely wrong about this, but I believe it's better to get the call wrong and preserve health, safety and order.
RSBobcat
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Posted: 1/15/2014 12:38 AM
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Pete Chouteau wrote:expand_more
I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once...

In case one, it is a violation, but frankly, if the possession is uncontested it is not critical to the outcome of the game and does not have to be enforced. A dead ball reminder should suffice.

In case two, if the "dive" caused the shooter to alter his shot in avoiding traumatic contact, then I think a foul might be warranted. The better call might have been a technical foul which would cover the unsportsmanlike conduct of the act. If such an act was allowed to occur, what other "make him flinch" techniques could be employed?

I could be entirely wrong about this, but I believe it's better to get the call wrong and preserve health, safety and order.

Difficulty resolving the decision ("call") to stay at a Holiday Inn Express, with the "preserve health, safety, and order" conclusion.........

 
giacomo
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Posted: 1/16/2014 1:05 PM
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There are two basic principles at work here. First "you are where you came from". Which would be a violation in the first instance. As someone earlier said, that could be overlooked by the ref. However, what if there was a full court press and it was inbounded that way? 

In the second instance, you have "the rule of verticality". Each offensive and defensive player has a right to their space from the floor to the rafters. It was called a foul in the technical sense, but not the spirit of the rule if no contact was made.

 
cc-cat
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Posted: 1/16/2014 2:34 PM
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Thanks for the feedback folks.  I agree that the 1st is petty.  I was more pissed at the ref who didn't simply say, "yea, it is a violation, but I am not going to call that when the play is not being contested.'  Instead he tried to defend the non-call as the right call. 

The 2nd play, I can not say how close the kid came to the shooter (I was blocked).  I can say the kid would never try to injure anyone - on or off the court.  My feeling was if the ref was going to make such an obscure call (others have said, if the play could have resulted in the shooter reacting in a manner that could have caused injury, perhaps the call could be made), then a stop in play and warning was more warranted than to reward 3 foul shots. 

The ref has a "history" with our team and others.  Really lousy ref.  I should have told him he had a future in the MAC - would have thought I was complimenting him. 
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 1/16/2014 3:03 PM
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I simply cannot get my head around the concept of a foul with no contact, unless you are calling a technical foul for "trash talking" another player or the ref.  I've watch a lot of basketball in my life, I don't recall ever seeing anything as stupid as this call.  As I said in another comment, it reminds me of the now-infamous 4-yard-line safety.  If refs called fouls in basketball because a player was in a position to potentially cause major injury to another player most college basketball teams would be down to playing waterboys at halftime.  Totally, ridiculous in my never to be humble opinion.   
C Money
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Posted: 1/16/2014 3:23 PM
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I had a similar foul called against me once in a church league game in high school. I remember because it was such a bad call. I didn't dive at the guy. I just jumped and threw my hand in his direction, and I was at least 6 inches away from contact. The ref blew the whistle while I was in the air, and didn't say it was because I lunged or T me up or anything like. Just a normal, garden-variety shooting foul, even though I was nowhere near contact.

So, yeah, the "not reviewable" 4 yard-line safety is a pretty good analogy, in that the only reason the call stands is because the ref doesn't want to admit how wrong he is.
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