Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Outcoached Tonight
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OU_Country
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Posted: 2/28/2013 2:10 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
I think too many people are making the mistake of thinking one great run last year is now expected every year.


This sums up everything for the mass of negative posts.  The expectation to finish the year with 30 wins, be ranked in the top 20, and beat everyone on the road in their barn (Memphis, UMass, Oklahoma) was clearly very high, and unrealistic.  If those were your expectations, and because they weren't met you're jumping off the bandwagon, then you clearly don't have enough invested, or you have forgotten prior years that were 17-14 or 19-13 like years with 9-7 conference records.  We're sitting in some of the best years of Ohio Basketball.  Have there been disappointments?  Yeah.  But good Lord look back in the past and realize that we're still much, much better of a program than we were pre-John Groce (and pre 2010), and give Christian more than 3/4 of season before you say he's awful.
IamTheWin25
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Posted: 2/28/2013 2:38 PM
It's almost too easy to see who has just hopped on the bandwagon and who has a more realistic perspective on Ohio Men's Basketball and the MAC in general.  When JC was still at Kent they were the class of the MAC, I believe they swept us in our matchups from 05-07.

Akron has accounted for our 2 MAC losses this year, they have a great team and are performing well.....as much as I dislike Dambrot I believe he is a solid coach.  Look at Akron's success over the past few years, very similar to ours without the tourney wins.  Are any of us clamoring for Dambrot as our coach?  Of course not, JC is essentially Dambrot 2.0 or 1.5 (depending on your opinion of him), we are always going to be in a great position to reach the tourney with JC at the helm.

The loss last night was a gut punch for sure, I did not think Akron would be able to take us down in our own building.  Like others have been saying, March 16th is the only matchup that really matters (assuming we make it that far).  We win that and we can let Akron and their handful of fans enjoy the bubble talk.
El Gato Roberto
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Posted: 2/28/2013 3:41 PM
nc wrote:expand_more
CBI here we come.  Where is Tim O'Shea when you need him?


dancing
Last Edited: 2/28/2013 3:41:46 PM by El Gato Roberto
OUcats82
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Posted: 2/28/2013 4:01 PM
El Gato Roberto wrote:expand_more
CBI here we come.  Where is Tim O'Shea when you need him?


dancing



redrustler
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Posted: 2/28/2013 4:35 PM
The only problem I have with your proposition Redrustler is that there are only so many John Groce's out there.  Coaches who can take mid-major teams to the brink of the top are few and far between.  Those kind of coaches don't grow on trees.  So I'm not so sure it's so easy to hire those types of coaches. 

I would agree with this. But the question is whether you are willing to hire a coach who may be a bigger risk for the chance of a higher reward. Like I wrote, JC will get you at least 19-22 wins every year, and a tournament appearance every few years. But we would not have enjoyed tournament wins over Georgetown, Michigan, and South Florida, and damn near a win against N.C. had they not taken a chance on JG. Does JC win those games? Not by the look of the bigger games they played this year.

The downside of a JG or someone like him is that you lose him after a few years. JC will probably be here as long as they want him. Lke I wrote above, I used to think that the JC type of coach was good enough, but my thoughts on this changed after the last couple of years of JG.

Obviously, his style is different than JG and some players have NOT responded to it.  I think a coach needs a few years to get his players in before he you can really say if he is successful or a failure.

Argh. The old "wait until he gets his own players" mantra. How many times did I read that about TOS? No less than Magic Johnson has criticised D'Antonio in L.A. because Coach D has tried to adapt a team to his style instead of the coach adapting his style to that of his team. According to Magic Johnson, he needs to adapt his style of play to the players he has. Amen. A good coach can take good players and at least do no harm. A good coach coaches to the strengths of the team he has. He does not try to adapt his players to his style. Not that JC has done this, but for some reason, outside of the Akron game at home, the 'Cats have not really been competitive against their better opponents this year. JG lost to Louisville, but at least they played Louisville tough. 

It seems to be that Ohio is performing right in line with realistic expectations.

Again, I was not looking for wins against Memphis and Oklahoma. I was looking for an Ohio team that looked like it belonged on the same floor with those teams. Maybe, maybe, you could argue they were competitive with Oklahoma, though I am not sure on paper Oklahoma was a better team, but my gripe is that Ohio was completely destroyed by Memphis. I think Louisville, Michigan and N.C. last year, and Georgetown the year before, were better teams than Memphis. A team Xavier, which has struggled this year, beat. And while someone can claim that there was some luck involved in winning those games last year and before, even if they would have lost the games, they would still have been competitive, a' la Louisville and N.C.

Like others have been saying, March 16th is the only matchup that really matters (assuming we make it that far).  We win that and we can let Akron and their handful of fans enjoy the bubble talk.

At this point, you are right. But I wonder. Take away the Winthrop loss, add an Oklahoma and UMass win, a win against Akron at home, and at least play Memphis tough, would the 'Cats absolutely have needed to win the MAC tourney to get a bid? And given the 'Cats performance in Big games against tougher opponents this year, short of an upset against Akron, JC needs to learn the right buttons to push. Like right now.
Last Edited: 2/28/2013 4:36:46 PM by redrustler
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 2/28/2013 11:56 PM
I wouldn't say at all that our guy's are lazy.  That's silly.  I do agree that I don't see the max effort out there as I watch (while allowing that the effort may be there but doesn't show up well via tv or webcast---but I doubt that).

Medler's analysis of Marshall's game and the way 'kron uses him is spot on.  He's got the kind of game that you can anchor a college team around.  Defense at the rim--never a bad thing.

bornacat is a screen moniker and not a real name?  I did not know that.
AttackU
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Posted: 3/1/2013 12:25 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I think too many people are making the mistake of thinking one great run last year is now expected every year.


This sums up everything for the mass of negative posts.  The expectation to finish the year with 30 wins, be ranked in the top 20, and beat everyone on the road in their barn (Memphis, UMass, Oklahoma) was clearly very high, and unrealistic.  If those were your expectations, and because they weren't met you're jumping off the bandwagon, then you clearly don't have enough invested, or you have forgotten prior years that were 17-14 or 19-13 like years with 9-7 conference records.  We're sitting in some of the best years of Ohio Basketball.  Have there been disappointments?  Yeah.  But good Lord look back in the past and realize that we're still much, much better of a program than we were pre-John Groce (and pre 2010), and give Christian more than 3/4 of season before you say he's awful.


Very well said, OU Country. I completely agree. OHIO is much improved from a few years ago. While we've lost some games we should have won, I'm still confident in us finishing strong. Go Bobcats! 
perimeterpost
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Posted: 3/1/2013 12:47 AM
Duke lost to Virginia tonight. A Top 5 team has lost to a non ranked team NINETEEN times this season. We're frustrated because our last 4 losses have been to teams with an RPI of 35 or better and we're not even close to being ranked.

We finished last season with 8 losses, we'll likely finish this season with 9, 10 at the most. There have been some disappointments this season, but let's not lose perspective.
Last Edited: 3/1/2013 12:47:59 AM by perimeterpost
OUcats82
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Posted: 3/1/2013 7:23 AM
Don't want to speak for everyone but a big part of the frustration for me is the fact that our margin of error is so minuscule.  Teams in the higher profile conferences can afford to lose bad games here and there because they are offset by the opportunity to take down a highly ranked, marquee program-Minne over IU and UVA over the Dukies this week, for example.  Minne had lost to Northwestern and UVA to some lower tier ACC and even some CAA schools earlier.  The closest thing we had was our game against Akron earlier this week. 

A team like us has to have a near flawless out of conference record and run the table in conference play just to be on the fringes.  I firmly believe that there will be teams from major conferences that make the tourney as at large teams that we could beat.  Unfortunately college hoops is all about perception and stereotypes to a degree.  The MAC is not the ACC or the Big East, but we are also not the Southeast Ohio Athletic League or the Ohio Capital Conference either. 

We could have a lousy season, get hot for a few days in March, win the MACC and go dancing.  We could have a banner year and hiccup in the MAC tourney and be NIT bound.  Life as a mid-major I guess. 
LongDistancebobcat
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Posted: 3/1/2013 8:19 AM
Yeah, your "stale offense" which has led the NCAA in assists for most of the year.  The "stale offense" which has led the MAC in scoring this year.
JerseyArnie
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Posted: 3/1/2013 8:24 AM
LongDistancebobcat wrote:expand_more
Yeah, your "stale offense" which has led the NCAA in assists for most of the year.  The "stale offense" which has led the MAC in scoring this year.


And on the other hand, good teams can't wait to play us now, because odds are someone is going to have a career day.  If JC win in Cleveland he will be a hero, if he loses a zero.
Chuck_IV
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Posted: 3/1/2013 11:08 AM
perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
Duke lost to Virginia tonight. A Top 5 team has lost to a non ranked team NINETEEN times this season. We're frustrated because our last 4 losses have been to teams with an RPI of 35 or better and we're not even close to being ranked.

We finished last season with 8 losses, we'll likely finish this season with 9, 10 at the most. There have been some disappointments this season, but let's not lose perspective.


I am frustrated because we have yet to win a game that we weren't supposed to, a couple times being completely EMBARRASED. That did not happen last year. Sure we lost more last year, but look at those losses, with the exception of the somewhat bad loss at E Michigan(by 13), we were in every single game and all were tough losses, even the game @ Louisville.

Never once last year did I say, "wow, that was a total embarrasment". This year, I've said it 3 times.

That's why I'm frustrated.
Last Edited: 3/1/2013 11:12:13 AM by Chuck_IV
perimeterpost
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Posted: 3/1/2013 12:07 PM
Chuck_IV wrote:expand_more
Duke lost to Virginia tonight. A Top 5 team has lost to a non ranked team NINETEEN times this season. We're frustrated because our last 4 losses have been to teams with an RPI of 35 or better and we're not even close to being ranked.

We finished last season with 8 losses, we'll likely finish this season with 9, 10 at the most. There have been some disappointments this season, but let's not lose perspective.


I am frustrated because we have yet to win a game that we weren't supposed to, a couple times being completely EMBARRASED. That did not happen last year. Sure we lost more last year, but look at those losses, with the exception of the somewhat bad loss at E Michigan(by 13), we were in every single game and all were tough losses, even the game @ Louisville.

Never once last year did I say, "wow, that was a total embarrasment". This year, I've said it 3 times.

That's why I'm frustrated.


I agree that we haven't looked sharp against the tougher teams on our schedule and its a concern, but we had some real head scratchers last year too.

Toledo (rpi 242) spotted us 15 and still beat us, BG (rpi 165) beat us by 10 and we shot 4-20 from three, and as you mentioned EMU (rpi244) beat us by 13 and we shot 31% overall. Those were total embarrassments. I would even add the loss to R Morris where we turned them over 31 times and still found a way to lose.

RPI for 8 losses last year-
4, 10, 68, 97, 114, 165, 242, 244
AVG- 118

RPI for 8 losses this year-
18, 24, 27, 35, 35, 57, 124, 279
AVG- 75           
redrustler
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Posted: 3/1/2013 12:15 PM
I am frustrated because we have yet to win a game that we weren't supposed to, a couple times being completely EMBARRASED. That did not happen last year. Sure we lost more last year, but look at those losses, with the exception of the somewhat bad loss at E Michigan(by 13), we were in every single game and all were tough losses, even the game @ Louisville.

Never once last year did I say, "wow, that was a total embarrasment". This year, I've said it 3 times.
 

This is my point exactly. Another poster commented about getting lucky. When you are playing within five points or so of your opponent, luck can win you a game. When you are being blown out by twenty points, luck won't help you. From where I sit, last year JG had this same team in position to win games against the better teams that JC so far has not. Something was lacking this year against those better teams. I was confident going into the MAC tourney last year, and the NCAA, based on how competitive the team was against its best competition, and figured a bounce here and there could be a win. This year, not so. I just hope JC and the team  learn something from the second Akron game, and perhaps watch  some tape from last year's home game against Akron.
OU_Country
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Posted: 3/1/2013 12:57 PM
Some of you really need to let this go and move on to the game tomorrow, and the rest of the season.  I get frustration, especially right after the disappointing loss, but BMW-ing 24 hrs before the next game isn't doing any good.
mf279801
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Posted: 3/1/2013 1:47 PM
Chuck_IV wrote:expand_more
Duke lost to Virginia tonight. A Top 5 team has lost to a non ranked team NINETEEN times this season. We're frustrated because our last 4 losses have been to teams with an RPI of 35 or better and we're not even close to being ranked.

We finished last season with 8 losses, we'll likely finish this season with 9, 10 at the most. There have been some disappointments this season, but let's not lose perspective.


I am frustrated because we have yet to win a game that we weren't supposed to, a couple times being completely EMBARRASED. That did not happen last year. Sure we lost more last year, but look at those losses, with the exception of the somewhat bad loss at E Michigan(by 13), we were in every single game and all were tough losses, even the game @ Louisville.

Never once last year did I say, "wow, that was a total embarrasment". This year, I've said it 3 times.

That's why I'm frustrated.


Sometimes 'the chalk' wins. Thats why 'the chalk' is The Chalk. Thats life. 
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 3/2/2013 2:37 PM
nc wrote:expand_more
Not going to happen. We lose to BG and Buffalo and barely beat Miami going into tournament. We will be lucky to win our semifinal game.
Do you give stock tips, too?
Doc Bobcat
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Posted: 3/2/2013 2:40 PM
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
Not going to happen. We lose to BG and Buffalo and barely beat Miami going into tournament. We will be lucky to win our semifinal game.


Do you give stock tips, too?


I'm sure that was sarcasm.

Wasn't it?
west side cat
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Posted: 3/2/2013 3:09 PM
Right or wrong, coaches, like quarterbacks, almost always get too  much credit for wins and take too much blame for losses.   JC will most likely prove to be a solid coach, hopefully for a long time, for the Bobcats.  
mf279801
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Posted: 3/3/2013 11:02 AM
nc wrote:expand_more
Not going to happen.  We lose to BG and Buffalo and barely beat Miami going into tournament.  We will be lucky to win our semifinal game.  


What happened NC? I thought BG was a lock to beat us yesterday.
JerseyArnie
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Posted: 3/3/2013 4:34 PM
mf279801 wrote:expand_more
Not going to happen.  We lose to BG and Buffalo and barely beat Miami going into tournament.  We will be lucky to win our semifinal game.  


What happened NC? I thought BG was a lock to beat us yesterday.


While I am glad we won, we beat BG. Those of us that are upset with JC, might give him credit for doing good in the conference, except the home loss to Akron.  We are not happy about the out of conference losses, especially the embarrassing  losses to Memphis and Belmont. These losses indicate to us that we are not the team we were last year.

I hope I am wrong, and that you JC backers can shove it in my face, but a win against BG while nice, is not like beating an NCAA caliber team.
Last Edited: 3/3/2013 4:35:55 PM by JerseyArnie
JSF
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Posted: 3/3/2013 5:54 PM
Yeah, the team we were last year lost at BG.
JerseyArnie
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Posted: 3/3/2013 6:22 PM
JSF wrote:expand_more
Yeah, the team we were last year lost at BG.


and beat Michigan, S Florida, Akron .....if JC does this, feel free to throw all the verbal abuse you want at me. I will gladly take it.

Groce has quite an NCAA record, JC's NCAA record is 0 for 2, and I believe in neither case the score was close.

It hurts when we lose, so I hope I am wrong.

Fix the fricking defense, it was stellar last year, and porous this year.
medler
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Posted: 3/3/2013 6:38 PM
JerseyArnie wrote:expand_more
Yeah, the team we were last year lost at BG.


and beat Michigan, S Florida, Akron .....if JC does this, feel free to throw all the verbal abuse you want at me. I will gladly take it.

Groce has quite an NCAA record, JC's NCAA record is 0 for 2, and I believe in neither case the score was close.

It hurts when we lose, so I hope I am wrong.

Fix the fricking defense, it was stellar last year, and porous this year.


I believe the defensive plan is largely the same as last season. Hedge high on ball screens in order to push a team further away from the basket...rotate, rotate, rotate. BG did a decent job in spurts, but failed to do anything after some minor adjustments Ohio made in the last 10 minutes.

Teams that have a Big that is mobile and can hit the 15 foot jumper are difficult for the defense to handle.

I don't particularly like it, but it was nice to see Ohio's defense vs. BG not hedge as hard...this took BG out of a few looks. The problem is if the Ohio defense sinks, they are opened to all sorts of mismatches. 

This is nothing different from last season. Teams with size (especially at the guard position), do very well against Ohio's defense. 

These are just match up exploitations. Akron is a match up problem...so is Kent. Lots of big and moveable pieces on the court that are hard to rotate against.

We're getting nothing from our 4 on the floor (either end of the floor...especially defensively)...Baltic is hardly a factor sometimes...overplays help...gets lost. Ohio can't go 4 guards against Kent and Akron because it takes the best perimeter defender we have (WO) and puts him in the post. 

Anyway...if you want to watch how Ohio defends ball screens, you'll get a pretty good idea to the continual looks we have developed over the year. 
Andrew Ruck
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Posted: 3/4/2013 9:06 AM
I avoided this thread until now...It was every bit as brutal as I expected.  Can we put a 72 hour lock on posting after losses for those who don't even have many posts?  Nothing is more annoying than the guys who only show up when we lose...It's like they get off on the drama and turmoil of disappointment.
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