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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: What UMass leaving says about MAC b-ball
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Pataskala
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Posted: 3/31/2014 11:13 AM
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From Hustlebelt.  A lot of truth there.
bornacatfan
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Posted: 3/31/2014 11:50 AM
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Nice find and lots of truth. Love came on here and lambasted the practice of scheduling cupcakes as have others with out taking it to the extreme of giacomo. Those on the other side of the fence talked about wins and the lack of the ability to schedule anyone in the Convo of a decent rpi. You got to get the bigs out on the road .....to do that you are gonna have to beat them with a stick. Like getting a raccoon out of a hole. There has to be a reason for it to leave.

THe shares each of those power conferences get from the rounds of toruney wins just create furthere seperation and give the MAC teams on the bottom little reason to do anything but shrug their shoulders and vote for tuesday night football.

We could fund the entire MAC on what the BIG gets from advancing each team one round.
perimeterpost
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Posted: 3/31/2014 11:56 AM
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UMass leaving the MAC says absolutely zero about MAC basketball and says everything about A10 basketball. UMass has a MAC level bball program that is lucky enough to be in a conference where none of the other schools have the financial obligation of an FBS level football program.
OUVan
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Posted: 3/31/2014 12:09 PM
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I don't see this is a statement about basketball as much as I do about football.  Yes, the gap between the A-10 and the MAC has widened but that is more about the A-10 strengthening itself more than the MAC falling away.  Let's be honest, UMass was never going to join the conference for basketball any more than Temple was going to.  UMass was only asked to join in a desperate hope that it would keep Temple in the MAC for football.  Once Temple left there was no real hope that they would join in basketball and little benefit in keeping them for football.  The MAC knew this and forced their hand.   I would love to continue scheduling them in basketball though.
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Posted: 3/31/2014 12:21 PM
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perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
UMass leaving the MAC says absolutely zero about MAC basketball and says everything about A10 basketball. UMass has a MAC level bball program that is lucky enough to be in a conference where none of the other schools have the financial obligation of an FBS level football program.


Even though the author says it's about basketball, it's about football. Football is on another level when it comes to revenue compared to basketball. The basketball regular season has been so diluted, that the only thing that matters to TV executives and advertisers is March. Football doesn't have that problem. Every week in the football season is do or die. UMass wouldn't have made the jump from FCS to FBS if it wasn't all about football.

This is probably the biggest argument for expanding the tournament as well. Allow the regular season champs a spot in the tournament as well as the conference tournament champion, which will in turn put more value in the regular season.
Last Edited: 3/31/2014 12:22:14 PM by GoCats105
OUVan
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Posted: 3/31/2014 12:33 PM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
This is probably the biggest argument for expanding the tournament as well. Allow the regular season champs a spot in the tournament as well as the conference tournament champion, which will in turn put more value in the regular season.


If they do expand the tournament it won't be to allow the regular season champs to get a spot.  Stoney Brook is still going to be left on the outside looking in so Seton Hall, Maryland, Penn State and/or some other big program, that has no business getting in the dance, can grab a spot and energize their money spending fans.
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Posted: 3/31/2014 12:59 PM
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I think this has less to do with scheduling and more to do with lack of investment in basketball programs.  After all, the "major" schools schedule cupcakes and virtually 100% home game non-conference schedules.

The MAC is getting what it pays for.  And, it doesn't pay much for basketball.

I do not forsee any miracle donation for Ohio Athletics.  (Heck, we can't even pay for the IPF.)  Nor any chance at increasing the ICA budget to move to another conference like CUSA or whatever.  So, we are stuck right where we are folks.  Get used to it.
anorris
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Posted: 3/31/2014 1:06 PM
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I agree it says more about the A-10 than the MAC at this point, and I actually applaud UMASS for taking a bold step in 2014 and NOT letting football drive the bus.

My other takeaway from this: our average SOS, despite all the griping here, is behind only Miami's over the last several years, and I doubt many of us seriously desire their schedules.
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Posted: 3/31/2014 1:14 PM
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Is this the same UMass that lost by 19 in the first round of the NCAA tourney? 
Casper71
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Posted: 3/31/2014 1:19 PM
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Uh, other than the last year or two, I think most all of us would have loved the schedule Miami has had the last ten years or so.  That schedule included the likes of Dayton, UC, and XU almost annually to start.  Some of them even going to Millett.  How many times in the past 5-10 years have we scheduled those three in state rivals or gotten any of them to the convo?

And, lets face it...the article is right on.  MAC basketball over the last 10 years has gone downhill fast!  Although a bit of a blip up this year because the bottom feeders were better, probably nobody ended up a Top 100 Sagrin team this year.  That really says a lot.
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Posted: 3/31/2014 2:12 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
This is probably the biggest argument for expanding the tournament as well. Allow the regular season champs a spot in the tournament as well as the conference tournament champion, which will in turn put more value in the regular season.


If they do expand the tournament it won't be to allow the regular season champs to get a spot.  Stoney Brook is still going to be left on the outside looking in so Seton Hall, Maryland, Penn State and/or some other big program, that has no business getting in the dance, can grab a spot and energize their money spending fans.

Expand the tournament to what? It's at 68 teams now. Technically, every conference tournament with an automatic bid could be considered part of the tournament as "play-in" games.

 
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 3/31/2014 2:20 PM
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Some truth in the article, but I don't think UMass turned down the all sport offer because the MAC is weak in basketball.  It's more like the Atlantic 10 is so strong in basketball, plus UMass doesn't want to travel to remote midwestern points for away games. 

One point in the article that is correct is this:  the MAC has limited resources and is trying to do both FBS football and Div. I basketball.  The mid major leagues which are doing well in basketball don't have FBS football.  Too little money being spread too thinly in the MAC.  Not sure the bowl earnings of the MAC in football is enough to offset the football budget committments.   

I don't agree with labeling the Atlantic 10 as "mid major."  The mid major polls don't do this.  Personally, I think the Missouri Valley invests so much money in hoops that its barely mid major any more. 

 

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Posted: 3/31/2014 2:35 PM
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The MVC that everybody keeps talking about had 1 great team and was ranked 11 by Sagarin with 1 team in the top 100. I ask what is that conference getting for all that money they're spending. 1 good team. Creighton is not a member any more and that hurts them a lot. The MAC east was ranked 12th by Sagarin. I wish that argument about the MVC would go away,
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Posted: 3/31/2014 5:06 PM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
The MVC that everybody keeps talking about had 1 great team and was ranked 11 by Sagarin with 1 team in the top 100. I ask what is that conference getting for all that money they're spending. 1 good team. Creighton is not a member any more and that hurts them a lot. The MAC east was ranked 12th by Sagarin. I wish that argument about the MVC would go away,

MVC last ten years in NCAA tourney is 16-18 with five Sweet Sixteen berths (none of which were Creighton)......I would love to have the past 10 years of the MVC pedigree over the horrendous numbers the MAC has displayed.

Look at MVC scheduling...they actually have an easier time getting decent teams to play them.  They're more well-known nationally.....and they get much better exposure.  (Not this horrible TWC deal where half the damn games are blacked out....what a f'n joke)

The MAC should aspire to put together a decade the MVC has had.  

There's a reason why Creighton is gone...THEY'RE FREAKIN' REALLY, REALLY GOOD!

UMass would roll into the MAC and dominate it right now.  The went 4-0 vs. MAC teams this year averaging double-digit wins...including road wins at OHIO and EMU by 12 each.  

The reason UMass doesn't want any part of the MAC is because they would be an anchor around their proverbial neck.  It would wreck their basketball program.....kill recruiting and exposure.

Staying in the A-10 is worth sacrificing a sub-par (at-best) football program.......the league got SIX teams in the dance this year.  SIX!!!!!  I would never leave that league if I was UMass.  Even middle of the road teams in that league (i.e. Richmond) were on the NCAA bubble into late February.  The MAC's "best" team (Toledo) was barely on the radar.

Bottom line....MAC just isn't relevant on the national scene.  They don't win enough big games (pull an upset in the non-conf).....and obviously with the exception of OHIO's success.....they don't win in NCAA tourney.  They need to win at least one game every other year to at least get on the map.  

The reality is...the MAC is barely any better than the OVC, A-Sun, Sun Belt, etc. right now.  I wish it was....but they are living off their 90's/early 2000 success (Kent) and it's time to put together some new success.  Not building off Ohio's 2010 and 2012 runs was a huge swing and miss.  How Akron hasn't won at least one game in the dance is absurd.

Look at the OVC...Murray State beats Vandy in 2010.....Morehead State registers wins in 2011 & 2012...then Murray has their crazy 31-2 season where they were poorly seeded and lost to Marquette in 2nd Rd.  Bottom line....that league is starting to build a little momentum....especially with Belmont on board.  Need proof?  Belmont was a five-seed in the NIT...Toledo was a six-seed.  That's reality, folks.

I want the MAC to succeed as much as anyone.....but they have a long road ahead with years of substantial success needed to become once again relevant.


 
Last Edited: 3/31/2014 5:07:07 PM by bshot44
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Posted: 3/31/2014 5:39 PM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
The MVC that everybody keeps talking about had 1 great team and was ranked 11 by Sagarin with 1 team in the top 100. I ask what is that conference getting for all that money they're spending. 1 good team. Creighton is not a member any more and that hurts them a lot. The MAC east was ranked 12th by Sagarin. I wish that argument about the MVC would go away,

THe MAC was rated about as high this season as the MVC in RPI yet Wichita State pulls out an 1 seed after going the season undefeated. What does that say about the MAC? It says that Ohio could go undefeated an earn a 1 seed out of this conference. Therefore the MAC at least at the level it played this year is adequate. Quite honestly some of the programs like Bowling Green and Central Michigan don't belong any higher than 100-200 in the RPI. They shouldn't be sporting 300+ RPIs but they shouldn't be in the Top 40 either. Toledo, Akron, Buffalo should be in the Top 100 with what they have to offer every year. Ohio Top 50+ of the RPI. The point is asking some of these MAC programs to assemble at-large resumes is unrealistic.

 
Last Edited: 3/31/2014 5:50:31 PM by Athens
bshot44
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Posted: 3/31/2014 5:51 PM
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[QUOTE=Uncle Wes=What does that say about the MAC? It says that Ohio could go undefeated an earn a 1 seed out of this conference. Therefore the MAC at least at the level it played this year is adequate. 

 
[/QUOTE]

I'll disagree with that.  A big reason Wichita got a #1 seed was because they went to Final Four the year before.  If OHIO went unbeaten this year (with wins over OSU, UMass, Richmond) they'd be probably at best a #3 seed.

Look at Murray State in 2012...they were 30-1 and were a #6 seed after cracking the top ten nationally in the polls.

To suggest the MAC is on par with the MVC because of RPI numbers is short-sided.  The leagues are light years apart when it comes to success and respect nationally.

 
Athens
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Posted: 3/31/2014 6:09 PM
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bshot44 wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=Uncle Wes=What does that say about the MAC? It says that Ohio could go undefeated an earn a 1 seed out of this conference. Therefore the MAC at least at the level it played this year is adequate. 

I'll disagree with that.  A big reason Wichita got a #1 seed was because they went to Final Four the year before.  If OHIO went unbeaten this year (with wins over OSU, UMass, Richmond) they'd be probably at best a #3 seed.

Look at Murray State in 2012...they were 30-1 and were a #6 seed after cracking the top ten nationally in the polls.

To suggest the MAC is on par with the MVC because of RPI numbers is short-sided.  The leagues are light years apart when it comes to success and respect nationally.

The committee is impartial to previous years performance. Its about how a school did that season. A MAC with an undefeated Ohio this year would have rated above the MVC and probably sucked Toledo into the tourney as an at-large. The problem is squarely on the shoulders of Ohio for not getting it done against Ohio State and UMass. Finishing 11-7 in the MAC, we only have ourselves to blame.


Last Edited: 3/31/2014 6:12:13 PM by Athens
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Posted: 3/31/2014 6:51 PM
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Tim Burke had a nice article about budgets, and this shows you why the MAC and A10 are where they are.  OHIO and UMASS are virtually identical in budgets, and the similarity between the remainder of the MAC and UMASS is that, like us, they are (or will be in '14) funding 85 men's scholarships with the requisite funding of 85 offsetting title nine schollies.  The remainder of the A10 does not have FBS football, hence have fewer schollies to fund, hence more money to spend on hoops.  Pretty sad state in the remainder of the MAC that the second highest budget for hoops is smaller than smallest budget in the A10.

I for one see a lot of value for having national exposure of the University from August to November by participating in FBS football, and our example below shows you can have both.  By extension, who feels in the last 15 years that we had less national exposure than the UMASS brand, not to mention many of the A10 schools listed below?

100 $3,222,448   Ohio Bobcats Athens, OH Convocation Center (Ohio) Jim Christian (since 2012) Site, Schedule, School
150 $2,142,779   Buffalo Bulls Buffalo, NY Alumni Arena Bobby Hurley (since 2013) Site, Schedule, School
153 $2,051,314   Akron Zips Akron, OH James A. Rhodes Arena Keith Dambrot (since 2004) Site, Schedule, School
166 $1,900,435   Miami (Oh.) Redhawks Oxford, OH Millett Hall John Cooper (since 2012) Site, Schedule, School
167 $1,867,684   Western Michigan Broncos Kalamazoo, MI University Arena (Western Michigan) Steve Hawkins (since 2003) Site, Schedule, School
168 $1,855,599   Kent State Golden Flashes Kent, OH Memorial Athletics Center Rob Senderoff (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School
169 $1,847,789   Toledo Rockets Toledo, OH John F. Savage Hall Tod Kowalczyk (since 2010) Site, Schedule, School
196 $1,666,104   Central Michigan Chippewas Mount Pleasant, MI McGuirk Arena Keno Davis (since 2012) Site, Schedule, School
205 $1,608,150   Eastern Michigan Eagles Ypsilanti, MI Convocation Center (Eastern Michigan) Rob Murphy (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School
213 $1,561,611   Ball State Cardinals Muncie, IN Worthen Arena James Whitford (since 2013) Site, Schedule, School
230 $1,460,613   Bowling Green Falcons Bowling Green, OH Stroh Center Chris Jans (since 2014) Site, Schedule, School
234 $1,447,289   Northern Illinois Huskies Dekalb, IL Convocation Center (Northern Illinois) Mark Montgomery (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School


70 $5,052,379   Virginia Commonwealth Rams Richmond, VA Siegel Center Shaka Smart (since 2009) Site, Schedule, School
84 $4,162,532   Richmond Spiders Richmond, VA Robins Center Chris Mooney (since 2005) Site, Schedule, School
88 $3,985,079   Dayton Flyers Dayton, OH University of Dayton Arena Archie Miller (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School
93 $3,563,735   Fordham Rams Bronx, NY Rose Hill Gym Tom Pecora (since 2010) Site, Schedule, School
94 $3,551,737   Duquesne Dukes Pittsburgh, PA A.J. Palumbo Center Jim Ferry (since 2012) Site, Schedule, School
97 $3,379,619   Saint Joseph's Hawks Philadelphia, PA Hagan Arena Phil Martelli (since 1995) Site, Schedule, School
98 $3,309,395   Saint Louis Billikens St Louis, MO Chaifetz Arena Jim Crews (since 2012) Site, Schedule, School
99 $3,266,120   Massachusetts Minutemen Amherst, MA Mullins Center Derek Kellogg (since 2008) Site, Schedule, School
102 $3,107,005   George Washington Colonials Washington, DC Charles E. Smith Center Mike Lonergan (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School
103 $3,010,170   George Mason Patriots Fairfax, VA Patriot Center Paul Hewitt (since 2011) Site, Schedule, School
110 $2,784,810   Rhode Island Rams Kingston, RI Ryan Center Dan Hurley (since 2012) Site, Schedule, School
111 $2,782,264   La Salle Explorers Philadelphia, PA Tom Gola Arena John Giannini (since 2004) Site, Schedule, School
128 $2,495,445   Saint Bonaventure Bonnies St Bonaventure, NY Reilly Center Mark Schmidt (since 2007) Site, Schedule, School

 
bshot44
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Posted: 4/1/2014 10:36 AM
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very telling numbers...the worst budget in the A-10 would be a comfortable 2nd in the MAC
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Posted: 4/1/2014 2:34 PM
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Well the report is out there that UMass is joining the AAC in all sports. So them leaving really says nothing about the MAC at all. Or the A-10. They wanted to be big time in both sports.
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Posted: 4/1/2014 3:06 PM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Well the report is out there that UMass is joining the AAC in all sports. So them leaving really says nothing about the MAC at all. Or the A-10. They wanted to be big time in both sports.
That was actually an April Fools prank by a UMASS alum who writes for SB Nation/BC Interruption: http://www.bcinterruption.com/boston-college-football-uma...

 
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Posted: 4/1/2014 3:28 PM
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Nice!
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