Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: City of Akron floats tax proposal to pay for arena for Zips
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SBH
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:09 PM
$76 million project (9,000 seats) to paid for entirely by a sales tax increase. University would pay zero to play there. Can't believe voters will approve this.  BTW, seems to show that Coach Tressel hasn't had much success in his role as chief fundraiser for a new arena.


 
The Optimist
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:17 PM

Could the board in charge at Akron be looking to hire Tressel in hopes that having him as President may make voters more likely to pass this resolution?
 

Interesting..

Ohio69
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:39 PM
SBH wrote:expand_more
$76 million project (9,000 seats) to paid for entirely by a sales tax increase. University would pay zero to play there. Can't believe voters will approve this.  BTW, seems to show that Coach Tressel hasn't had much success in his role as chief fundraiser for a new arena.


Or Tressel was incredibly successful in getting city involved?

Why do you think it won't pass? 

This would fail miserably in Athens no doubt.
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 4/23/2014 4:59 PM
The opposing groups could just take out ads with a picture of an empty Infocision Stadium. No ad copy necessary.

That money should've been spent on a basketball arena in the first place.
Last Edited: 4/23/2014 5:01:09 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
mf279801
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:03 PM
Ohio69 wrote:expand_more
$76 million project (9,000 seats) to paid for entirely by a sales tax increase. University would pay zero to play there. Can't believe voters will approve this.  BTW, seems to show that Coach Tressel hasn't had much success in his role as chief fundraiser for a new arena.


Or Tressel was incredibly successful in getting city involved?

Why do you think it won't pass? 

This would fail miserably in Athens no doubt.

I certainly hope this would fail miserably in Athens. I would hope it would fail miserably in ANY city. While I think its ridiculous for a city to gift wrap a venue for any football/baseball/basketball/hockey team, its doubly stupid for a city to do so for a (State) University! What're the Zips going to do if its voted down: relocate their basketball program to Las Vegas? Toronto?* This is not something a city should pay for.

If Akron's city government were clever, they'd announce that they're going to support the construction of this arena with 100% of the money that the University of Akron pays the City*






*From the PlainDealer article, I do realize that this isn't being done solely for the University (who won't own the venue), but its still dumb.




 
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:08 PM
Do they threaten to move the franchise if the voters don't approve the measure?
Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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Posted: 4/23/2014 5:13 PM
I'm not saying Jim Tressel is holding Zippy hostage, but the kangaroo has been detained and threatened with being sent back to Australia.
Fake Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 4/23/2014 6:07 PM
Don't underestimate this ballot measure. The voters of Summit County approved every countywide tax measure presented to them in November, 2013.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:30 PM
how is a tax payer funder arena for a tax payer funded university any worse than a tax payer funded arena for a for-profit professional team?

Quote:expand_more
Stephen Ross, a real estate developer who owns the Miami Dolphins, is the third-wealthiest owner in the NFL with a net worth of $4.8 billion, according to Forbes. The Dolphins are worth $1.06 billion, making them the 25th most valuable sports franchise in the world. Ross, a real estate developer, asked taxpayers for $380 million in public funds to renovate Sun Life Stadium so that it could host future Super Bowls. The Florida state legislature ended its last session without voting on the project, though, so Ross and the Dolphins began issuing threats to leave south Florida, like all jilted owners do. Ross then started a political action committee, apparently with the intent of targeting state representatives who weren’t on board with his plan. To make a point, Ross and the Dolphins submitted a ridiculous bid to host the 2015 Super Bowl that proposed playing the game not in Sun Life Stadium but on board an aircraft carrier parked in Miami’s harbor. The city of Miami, by the way, is facing decades of debt brought on by the boondoggle stadium deal it gave Major League Baseball’s Miami Marlins. Neither that nor Ross’ wealth will prevent him from coming back to taxpayers in the future.
source http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2013/09/16/2626101/meet-b.../
Mark Lembright '85
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:43 PM
I sure hope such a measure would fail in Athens-such a tax increase would be much more expensive for an Athens Co. taxpayer  than one living in Summit Co. as Athens Co. has a much smaller population than Summit and thus each Athens Co. taxpayer would bear a higher tax burden!  

But out seriously, good, bad or indifferent the ballot is a sign of the times.  And it might seem expensive for an arena but I have to think the Convocation Center was fairly expensive for the Ohio taxpayer when it was built in the 60s (granted, the burden was borne by all Ohio taxpayers and the individual tax burden was less but the principal's the same).  
Last Edited: 4/23/2014 7:47:36 PM by Mark Lembright '85
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Posted: 4/23/2014 7:46 PM
Fake Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Don't underestimate this ballot measure. The voters of Summit County approved every countywide tax measure presented to them in November, 2013.

I have said for a while in most parts of the country the only way growth occurs is 1) State or Federal funding (new highway spurring growth), 2) Generous Private Donation (for a transformative building), 3) Passing an tax levy to fund a public need (new High School). The arena project sounds reasonable for a city of the size of Akron. If it can create 1,000+ jobs then the 76 million is justified and I'm sure it will create far more in the long term.

 
Last Edited: 4/23/2014 7:49:35 PM by Athens
colobobcat66
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:20 PM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
Don't underestimate this ballot measure. The voters of Summit County approved every countywide tax measure presented to them in November, 2013.


I have said for a while in most parts of the country the only way growth occurs is 1) State or Federal funding (new highway spurring growth), 2) Generous Private Donation (for a transformative building), 3) Passing an tax levy to fund a public need (new High School). The arena project sounds reasonable for a city of the size of Akron. If it can create 1,000+ jobs then the 76 million is justified and I'm sure it will create far more in the long term.
growth can also occur when a profitable business invests in new facilities and maintains long term jobs, not just some relatively short term construction project. Hard to see how a arena can generate more than 1000 long term jobs. Just my opinion
mf279801
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Posted: 4/23/2014 9:54 PM
perimeterpost wrote:expand_more
how is a tax payer funder arena for a tax payer funded university any worse than a tax payer funded arena for a for-profit professional team?

Stephen Ross, a real estate developer who owns the Miami Dolphins, is the third-wealthiest owner in the NFL with a net worth of $4.8 billion, according to Forbes. The Dolphins are worth $1.06 billion, making them the 25th most valuable sports franchise in the world. Ross, a real estate developer, asked taxpayers for $380 million in public funds to renovate Sun Life Stadium so that it could host future Super Bowls. The Florida state legislature ended its last session without voting on the project, though, so Ross and the Dolphins began issuing threats to leave south Florida, like all jilted owners do. Ross then started a political action committee, apparently with the intent of targeting state representatives who weren’t on board with his plan. To make a point, Ross and the Dolphins submitted a ridiculous bid to host the 2015 Super Bowl that proposed playing the game not in Sun Life Stadium but on board an aircraft carrier parked in Miami’s harbor. The city of Miami, by the way, is facing decades of debt brought on by the boondoggle stadium deal it gave Major League Baseball’s Miami Marlins. Neither that nor Ross’ wealth will prevent him from coming back to taxpayers in the future.


source http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2013/09/16/2626101/meet-b.../

From a economics point of view I'd say its equally bad: both take from the local (in some cases city, in this case county) tax payer in exchange for the promise of economic development/increased economic activity. By the way, this promise is based on, at best, shoddy studies. A more cynical person might say that they're bunk, and all that is accomplished is a movement of resources from the public at large to a much smaller number of beneficiaries (i.e. fans of the team, the coaches and AD). 

So from a Responsible Spending point of view, I'd say its equally bad for the residents of Summit County. For the rest of the State of Ohio its a great deal, as its money that the state isn't spending on the school. Likewise, from the perspective of an Akron student's family its not coming out of student fees. I'd also note that while, yes, it is a tax payer funded university, its "owned" by the State of Ohio, not Summit County. For this to make sense for Summit County, it would have to be drawing tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people a year from outside of Summit County.

From a fan extortion point of view, a professional team can threaten to relocate. The Zips can just threaten to...try to suck as much as Miami?

 
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Posted: 4/23/2014 10:13 PM
Mark Lembright '85 wrote:expand_more
. . . But I have to think the Convocation Center was fairly expensive for the Ohio taxpayer when it was built in the 60s (granted, the burden was borne by all Ohio taxpayers and the individual tax burden was less but the principal's the same).
I don't remember the exact breakdown but some of the Convo construction was funded by the Feds, hence the dorms under the stands. The major portion was bonded indebtedness taken on by the university that took decades to pay off.
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Posted: 4/23/2014 10:13 PM
The ABJ story says the arena would be built on property owned by the Univ and the city, so that gives them an out for not charging the Univ any rent.

Also, it's a 9,000-seat arena, which is still 3,000 less than the 45-year-old Convo in a city 1/8 the size of Akron.

Interestingly, the totally unscientific poll in the ABJ story shows the tax losing by only 6%.  Usually the antis vote early and often against these sorts of things. 
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Posted: 4/23/2014 10:58 PM
colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
Don't underestimate this ballot measure. The voters of Summit County approved every countywide tax measure presented to them in November, 2013.


I have said for a while in most parts of the country the only way growth occurs is 1) State or Federal funding (new highway spurring growth), 2) Generous Private Donation (for a transformative building), 3) Passing an tax levy to fund a public need (new High School). The arena project sounds reasonable for a city of the size of Akron. If it can create 1,000+ jobs then the 76 million is justified and I'm sure it will create far more in the long term.
growth can also occur when a profitable business invests in new facilities and maintains long term jobs, not just some relatively short term construction project. Hard to see how a arena can generate more than 1000 long term jobs. Just my opinion

Don't even think on an long term basis. Think in one year's time. Divide 76 million by 1,000 jobs and you get 76,000 dollars per job. If you could create 1,000 jobs for one year with an annual average compensation package of 76,000 (think union pay scale) then the project has paid for itself. Take that number and make it 500 jobs over 2 years or 250 over 4 years if you want. 125 over 8 years. I'm not even talking about the labor costs of completing the project which in itself is a job creator. It will be more than recouped easily with the secondary development. My guess is a 50 million dollar economic impact for the city every year. Charleston WV hosts a High School basketball tournament and that brings in 7.5 million dollars to their city annually by itself. 

www.wvexecutive.com/milestone-for-boys-basketball-championship-in-west-virginia/

 
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Posted: 4/23/2014 11:05 PM
Pataskala wrote:expand_more
Also, it's a 9,000-seat arena, which is still 3,000 less than the 45-year-old Convo in a city 1/8 the size of Akron.


I think 7,000 would be perfect, yet still aspirational, for Akron.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 6:53 AM
Bill Goodman's Gun and Knife Show won't come to a building without facilities for at least 8500.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 8:28 AM
Uncle Wes wrote:expand_more
Don't underestimate this ballot measure. The voters of Summit County approved every countywide tax measure presented to them in November, 2013.


I have said for a while in most parts of the country the only way growth occurs is 1) State or Federal funding (new highway spurring growth), 2) Generous Private Donation (for a transformative building), 3) Passing an tax levy to fund a public need (new High School). The arena project sounds reasonable for a city of the size of Akron. If it can create 1,000+ jobs then the 76 million is justified and I'm sure it will create far more in the long term.
growth can also occur when a profitable business invests in new facilities and maintains long term jobs, not just some relatively short term construction project. Hard to see how a arena can generate more than 1000 long term jobs. Just my opinion


Don't even think on an long term basis. Think in one year's time. Divide 76 million by 1,000 jobs and you get 76,000 dollars per job. If you could create 1,000 jobs for one year with an annual average compensation package of 76,000 (think union pay scale) then the project has paid for itself. Take that number and make it 500 jobs over 2 years or 250 over 4 years if you want. 125 over 8 years. I'm not even talking about the labor costs of completing the project which in itself is a job creator. It will be more than recouped easily with the secondary development. My guess is a 50 million dollar economic impact for the city every year. Charleston WV hosts a High School basketball tournament and that brings in 7.5 million dollars to their city annually by itself.

www.wvexecutive.com/milestone-for-boys-basketball-champio.../
do they need a new arena to take in that money or can they use the current one for these events? Plus that money taken in by Charleston wipes out half the disposable income in the state of WV, is that good for the state? Just kidding.
Akron probably needs a new arena and there are worse ways to spend $76M than on an arena. As usual the local taxpayers who don't use it will be the ones getting directly screwed. Oh well, life goes on since I don't live there.
Last Edited: 4/24/2014 8:29:01 AM by colobobcat66
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Posted: 4/24/2014 9:11 AM
You guys have done a great job of laying out what the issues are here:  will the short term and long term public values created by a public investment of $76 million justify the amount of the investment, especially in a time of fiscal austerity?  So many variables involved that it's hard to know for sure.  So many of us sports fans have a hard time being objective because we personally benefit from these facilities.   

I think 9,000 would be a reasonable capacity for a metro area the size of Akron-Canton.  I'm assuming this will be a multi purpose facility and would host many community events.  If Akron keeps their program playing well, I would anticipate an increase in attendance attracted by a nice, new venue.

We really want the MAC to improve?  Then we need to hope things like this work out for rival schools in the conference, even when it's a rival we don't particularly like.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 9:23 AM
Being an Akron resident, I have a vested interest in this project.  First, Rhodes Arena is a dump.  I think they put all of their eggs in one basket with the football stadium which sits empty.  I think this will be a tough sell.  They are asking for a .25% sales tax increase with only 1/3 being for the arena ($7M per year for 20 years).  The other two thirds is for safety which includes more police and upgrades for the jail.  This is very deceptive, because in the past people have stated they were willing to raise taxes for improved safety and now suddenly they tack on this new arena.  It will be interesting here in Akron until November when this is on the ballot.  If I were a betting man, I would guess that it will fail at least the first time they try it.  They will push the safety end because people want that and try to minimize the arena part.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 9:26 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
. . . But I have to think the Convocation Center was fairly expensive for the Ohio taxpayer when it was built in the 60s (granted, the burden was borne by all Ohio taxpayers and the individual tax burden was less but the principal's the same).


I don't remember the exact breakdown but some of the Convo construction was funded by the Feds, hence the dorms under the stands. The major portion was bonded indebtedness taken on by the university that took decades to pay off.


Very interesting OCF and I think you're correct, there may have been some federal funding used for the Convo. 

I'm glad Akron/Summit Co. is doing this as its good for NE Ohio.  Heck, even with the .25% increase in county sales tax, those living in Summit Co. are still paying less than what I am here in Cuyahoga Co.    Is it a waste of money?  Seems like it will get a lot of use.  And I'm sure there were those who thought building a 14,000 seat arena in Athens decades ago in a county barely larger than that was a colossal waste of money but I think that worked out pretty well.  Good for Akron.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 9:35 AM
akroncat wrote:expand_more
Being an Akron resident, I have a vested interest in this project.  First, Rhodes Arena is a dump.  I think they put all of their eggs in one basket with the football stadium which sits empty.  I think this will be a tough sell.  They are asking for a .25% sales tax increase with only 1/3 being for the arena ($7M per year for 20 years).  The other two thirds is for safety which includes more police and upgrades for the jail.  This is very deceptive, because in the past people have stated they were willing to raise taxes for improved safety and now suddenly they tack on this new arena.  It will be interesting here in Akron until November when this is on the ballot.  If I were a betting man, I would guess that it will fail at least the first time they try it.  They will push the safety end because people want that and try to minimize the arena part.


The most interesting question is how a UA presidential choice could affect voter behavior.  Choosing the sweater vest could alienate a large percentage of voters...or it could attract some.  I believe it would do the former, but we'll see.  I think this will be a very hard sell given that the city is imposing significant rate increases for water/sewer because it has indicated it cannot pay for upgrades itself.  The economy in the city is not good...and few suburbanites care about UA and the city jail and safety forces.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 10:26 AM
Do we know when this vote will take place?

I could see this being an easier sell than people think.  (I mean sell, not reality.)  Akron would not have a downtown concert/event venue that will bring tons of people and money to revitalize the city....  blah blah blah.

By the way, 9,000 is perfect.  I wish the Convo was no more than 10,000.  We get 8,000 in there and it looks empty.  It is strange.
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Posted: 4/24/2014 12:11 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
I think 9,000 would be a reasonable capacity for a metro area the size of Akron-Canton.  I'm assuming this will be a multi purpose facility and would host many community events.  If Akron keeps their program playing well, I would anticipate an increase in attendance attracted by a nice, new venue.


Key quote right here. If the whole community will use it, then this will absolutely happen. I'm sure local high schools would love to play in a brand new arena for OHSAA Tournament games rather than the JAR. Plus concerts, comedians, trade shows, beer fests, etc.
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