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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Some Thoughts on Jim Christian and Saul Phillipps
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JSF
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Posted: 4/17/2014 10:31 AM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
*  Areas where I may disagree with JSF (apologies to bornacat, but I'm keeping this short...)
  • JC showed the ability to develop talent and improve some players.  See N. Kellogg.
I don't think I said this. If I did, I want to correct myself: I had no issues with player development.


Quote:expand_more

  • Being against someone mainly because they just happened to replace someone you really liked in a role is not something I'd expect from someone as erudite as JSF.  This kind of thing happens all the time with principals, band directors, coaches, church staffers, etc.  People will not let go of the previous office holder and they hold it against the new office holder.
Let me be clear: My opinion of Jim Christian was not mainly because of John Groce. The fact Christian was Groce's successor made the contrasts sharper in my mind, but my opinions about the man are on his own merits.
Eagle66
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Posted: 4/17/2014 3:45 PM
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JC still has a chance to beat Akron... apparently he's recruiting a PG from Las Vegas to BC.  I read somewhere that he looked like he was heading to Akron.  The article mentions JC was recruiting him here, but I don't remember hearing his name mentioned before.
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:09 PM
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Eagle66 wrote:expand_more
JC still has a chance to beat Akron... apparently he's recruiting a PG from Las Vegas to BC.  I read somewhere that he looked like he was heading to Akron.  The article mentions JC was recruiting him here, but I don't remember hearing his name mentioned before.

I love the MAC, but if JC is recruiting the same kids to BC as he was for here, either we were going to be a REALLY good MAC team or he is going to have a rough couple of seasons in the ACC before he gets canned.

 
OUVan
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:26 PM
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bn9 wrote:expand_more
I love the MAC, but if JC is recruiting the same kids to BC as he was for here, either we were going to be a REALLY good MAC team or he is going to have a rough couple of seasons in the ACC before he gets canned.

 


So essentially you are saying that you wouldn't belong to any club that would have you as a member?  Sorry but this is a silly position.  D.J. Cooper was recruited by Baylor.  Do you not think he could have played at Baylor?  What about Caris Levert?  We have had plenty of players over the years that could have played at high majors.  Recruiting isn't an exact science.  Just because a kid isn't recruited by a certain school doesn't mean he could have starred there. 
bn9
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Posted: 4/17/2014 4:49 PM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
I love the MAC, but if JC is recruiting the same kids to BC as he was for here, either we were going to be a REALLY good MAC team or he is going to have a rough couple of seasons in the ACC before he gets canned.

 


So essentially you are saying that you wouldn't belong to any club that would have you as a member?  Sorry but this is a silly position.  D.J. Cooper was recruited by Baylor.  Do you not think he could have played at Baylor?  What about Caris Levert?  We have had plenty of players over the years that could have played at high majors.  Recruiting isn't an exact science.  Just because a kid isn't recruited by a certain school doesn't mean he could have starred there. 

No, what I am saying is that an ENTIRE team of MAC players, would have trouble competing in the ACC.  Just like BC did last year.  We have had plenty of players that could have been "high-major" players, but when was the last time we had twelve of them on the same team?  

 
OUVan
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Posted: 4/18/2014 9:40 AM
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bn9 wrote:expand_more
No, what I am saying is that an ENTIRE team of MAC players, would have trouble competing in the ACC.  Just like BC did last year.  We have had plenty of players that could have been "high-major" players, but when was the last time we had twelve of them on the same team?  

 


But we aren't talking about an entire team of players.  We are talking one player. 
bn9
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Posted: 4/18/2014 9:46 AM
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OUVan wrote:expand_more
No, what I am saying is that an ENTIRE team of MAC players, would have trouble competing in the ACC.  Just like BC did last year.  We have had plenty of players that could have been "high-major" players, but when was the last time we had twelve of them on the same team?  

 


But we aren't talking about an entire team of players.  We are talking one player. 

You may have been, but I wasn't.  

 
Mark Lembright '85
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Posted: 4/18/2014 9:49 AM
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Well articulated thread JSF!  I'm excited about the new coach but I will say this about JC-I think in some aspects the job he's done the last two years is a little underappreciated.  On its face he inherited a great situation, a Sweet 16 team with all of its starting players returning.  However, that team sometimes seemed to have a different agenda amongst themselves (and I'm not even talking about the apparent occasional disconnect between the players and JC).  And as we all know, making it to the Sweet 16 on a yearly basis is a near impossibility.  So I thought JC did OK his first year here; 16-2 in the MAC is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

And the job he did this year, with all the new players, the turnover, the injuries, etc. was fantastic.  Ohio had quality OOC wins and contended for the MAC championship until the injury bug hit.  It happens.  Yet he got them to regroup and stay focused through the end of the entire season, no small feat.

I do think JC's ability to recruit players to Ohio was on the upswing.  His second recruiting class looked to be an impressive one, with Tariq and others.  It would have been interesting to see what he could have done with his sytem here over 4 or 5 more years.

I think JC suffered from being the next coach after Groce.  Unarguably Groce was the best b-ball coach Ohio's had in nearly two generations, plain and simple.  Who else has taken Ohio to the cusp of the Elite 8 since Coach Snyder?  Plus Groce just embraced Athens and Ohio University about as much as one can.  So I think JC suffers in comparison to Groce by being the very next coach after Groce.  Had JC followed TOS I think most of us would think JC was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

But its all good.  I do like the potential that Coach Phillips seems to bring and am excited about Ohio's future.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:30 AM
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Mark Lembright '85 wrote:expand_more
Well articulated thread JSF!  I'm excited about the new coach but I will say this about JC-I think in some aspects the job he's done the last two years is a little underappreciated.  On its face he inherited a great situation, a Sweet 16 team with all of its starting players returning.  However, that team sometimes seemed to have a different agenda amongst themselves (and I'm not even talking about the apparent occasional disconnect between the players and JC).  And as we all know, making it to the Sweet 16 on a yearly basis is a near impossibility.  So I thought JC did OK his first year here; 16-2 in the MAC is certainly nothing to sneeze at.

And the job he did this year, with all the new players, the turnover, the injuries, etc. was fantastic.  Ohio had quality OOC wins and contended for the MAC championship until the injury bug hit.  It happens.  Yet he got them to regroup and stay focused through the end of the entire season, no small feat.

I do think JC's ability to recruit players to Ohio was on the upswing.  His second recruiting class looked to be an impressive one, with Tariq and others.  It would have been interesting to see what he could have done with his sytem here over 4 or 5 more years.

I think JC suffered from being the next coach after Groce.  Unarguably Groce was the best b-ball coach Ohio's had in nearly two generations, plain and simple.  Who else has taken Ohio to the cusp of the Elite 8 since Coach Snyder?  Plus Groce just embraced Athens and Ohio University about as much as one can.  So I think JC suffers in comparison to Groce by being the very next coach after Groce.  Had JC followed TOS I think most of us would think JC was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

But its all good.  I do like the potential that Coach Phillips seems to bring and am excited about Ohio's future.


This echoes my sentiments exactly.
OUVan
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Posted: 4/18/2014 10:38 AM
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bn9 wrote:expand_more

You may have been, but I wasn't.  

 


But the whole discussion is based on a rumor of ONE player who he may or may not have recruited at Ohio.  Seems like kind of a reach to worry about a coach under-recruiting at his new job based on such a premise.  So yes, if he recruits a roster full of MAC level players he won't be at BC long.   I'm going to guess that that won't be an issue however.
Last Edited: 4/18/2014 10:44:27 AM by OUVan
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Posted: 4/18/2014 3:33 PM
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Very good posts here.  I agree with about 90 percent of what's been said, including JSF's long tome-like initial post, which was very well written and thought out.

I'll only add two things that have been rattling around in my brain the last few days:  

1.  Why has Saul Phillips completely rearranged my usual interest at this time of year?  I'm usually all cranked up about the upcoming football season and spending most of my time on the football board analyzing the Spring Game and looking at prospective depth charts for the fall.  This year after the SP hire, I'm spending much more time on the basketball side and find myself with an interest level in basketball at about the same level as when we were in the midst of the JG Sweet 16 run.  I really can't explain it.  But, Saul Ball has really taken my basketball interest level up several notches.  

2.  I know that this is impossible to prove or disprove, but I keep thinking if we had hired SP in 2012 that we would have returned to the NCAAs.  I think his particular personality would have interacted much differently with the players and that we might not have seen the discord that developed.  Having said that, I do think that JC was a good coach.  I think he was building his own team his own way and that next year with the recruits he had coming in he'd have had his type of personnel and we would have been very good.  I guess the bottom line is that I believe Saul is a much more flexible kind of guy that figures out the best way to coach the team he has; whereas, Jim is the type who has a more set way of coaching and brings in guys to fit his less flexible system.  Could be wrong, but that's my perception.  

 
Last Edited: 4/18/2014 3:36:58 PM by OhioCatFan
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Posted: 4/18/2014 4:02 PM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Very good posts here.  I agree with about 90 percent of what's been said, including JSF's long tome-like initial post, which was very well written and thought out.

I'll only add two things that have been rattling around in my brain the last few days:  

1.  Why has Saul Phillips completely rearranged my usual interest at this time of year?  I'm usually all cranked up about the upcoming football season and spending most of my time on the football board analyzing the Spring Game and looking at prospective depth charts for the fall.  This year after the SP hire, I'm spending much more time on the basketball side and find myself with an interest level in basketball at about the same level as when we were in the midst of the JG Sweet 16 run.  I really can't explain it.  But, Saul Ball has really taken my basketball interest level up several notches.  

2.  I know that this is impossible to prove or disprove, but I keep thinking if we had hired SP in 2012 that we would have returned to the NCAAs.  I think his particular personality would have interacted much differently with the players and that we might not have seen the discord that developed.  Having said that, I do think that JC was a good coach.  I think he was building his own team his own way and that next year with the recruits he had coming in he'd have had his type of personnel and we would have been very good.  I guess the bottom line is that I believe Saul is a much more flexible kind of guy that figures out the best way to coach the team he has; whereas, Jim is the type who has a more set way of coaching and brings in guys to fit his less flexible system.  Could be wrong, but that's my perception.  

  Just curious.  Which JC "system" are you referring to; the first one with everything revolving around the point guard, or the second one where he asked very little of his point guard?  I don't think he had a chance to even show anyone at OU what his basic system is.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 4:14 PM
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LongDistancebobcat wrote:expand_more
  

  Just curious.  Which JC "system" are you referring to; the first one with everything revolving around the point guard, or the second one where he asked very little of his point guard?  I don't think he had a chance to even show anyone at OU what his basic system is.


Hmmmmm....

got to give that a thought....

No, I guess I really I don't ......it does not matter as we will never know and he is gone. 

Perhaps the correct form of that sentence would be "he never gave himself a chance to show us his system"

At this point OCF gave him props, said he was a good coach,  and any further discussion is not relevant and has no purpose. 








JSF
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Posted: 4/18/2014 4:57 PM
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Unless it was markedly different than what he did at Kent, we've seen it.

And Io put 0% of the 2013 MAC championship loss on Christian. The team couldn't hit a shot.
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Posted: 4/18/2014 7:13 PM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
I know that this is impossible to prove or disprove, but I keep thinking if we had hired SP in 2012 that we would have returned to the NCAAs.  I think his particular personality would have interacted much differently with the players and that we might not have seen the discord that developed.   I guess the bottom line is that I believe Saul is a much more flexible kind of guy that figures out the best way to coach the team he has; whereas, Jim is the type who has a more set way of coaching and brings in guys to fit his less flexible system.  Could be wrong, but that's my perception.  

 


I don't think SP was a hot coach in 2012 and I doubt anyone was banging on his door. At that time he was a so-so coach at NDSU IMO. If we had tried to hire him back then this board would have thought Schaus went off the deep end. A coach with a 55% winning percentage wouldn't have impressed many here.

2007–08 North Dakota State 16–13 10–8 4th  
2008–09 North Dakota State 26–7 16–2 1st NCAA First Round
2009–10 North Dakota State 11–18 8–10 6th  
2010–11 North Dakota State 14–15 8–10 7th  
2011–12 North Dakota State 17–14 9–9 3rd
Alan Swank
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Posted: 4/18/2014 9:33 PM
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My guess is that in 10+ years many people will have a tough time remembering the guy who came after John Groce.
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Posted: 4/19/2014 10:21 PM
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Wait a minute guys...does this mean the record is 2 NCAA visits, two loosing seasons and two mediocre ones.  Let's hope we only see the best two of the six seasons at OHIO or the BAers will get restless no matter how much fun the guy is!
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Posted: 4/20/2014 7:49 AM
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OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
Very good posts here. I agree with about 90 percent of what's been said, including JSF's long tome-like initial post, which was very well written and thought out.

I'll only add two things that have been rattling around in my brain the last few days:

1. Why has Saul Phillips completely rearranged my usual interest at this time of year? I'm usually all cranked up about the upcoming football season and spending most of my time on the football board analyzing the Spring Game and looking at prospective depth charts for the fall. This year after the SP hire, I'm spending much more time on the basketball side and find myself with an interest level in basketball at about the same level as when we were in the midst of the JG Sweet 16 run. I really can't explain it. But, Saul Ball has really taken my basketball interest level up several notches.

2. I know that this is impossible to prove or disprove, but I keep thinking if we had hired SP in 2012 that we would have returned to the NCAAs. I think his particular personality would have interacted much differently with the players and that we might not have seen the discord that developed. Having said that, I do think that JC was a good coach. I think he was building his own team his own way and that next year with the recruits he had coming in he'd have had his type of personnel and we would have been very good. I guess the bottom line is that I believe Saul is a much more flexible kind of guy that figures out the best way to coach the team he has; whereas, Jim is the type who has a more set way of coaching and brings in guys to fit his less flexible system. Could be wrong, but that's my perception.
I think the reason I keep checking back to this board this time of year is that I have no idea which players will be here next year. With the unexpected exit of JC, almost everybody who's here and who's supposed to be coming next year is up for grabs. That gets my attention- who knows what next years team will look like.
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Posted: 4/20/2014 9:29 AM
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colobobcat66 wrote:expand_more
 I think the reason I keep checking back to this board this time of year is that I have no idea which players will be here next year. With the unexpected exit of JC, almost everybody who's here and who's supposed to be coming next year is up for grabs. That gets my attention- who knows what next years team will look like.
\

Good reason to come back. I had lunch Friday with a player transferring out of Loyola .....Porter Moser came in 3 years ago as the HC. Nick is the 17th kid to transfer out of that program since the hire. Can you imagine where we would be on this board with that kind of stuff going on? 

Glad you are here cb66. Like everyone else we are looking in for news and notes. I think Ark had an article yesterday on late season signees that I saw on my Twitter timeline yesterday . May want to look over in news for that one.  

 
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Posted: 4/21/2014 9:30 AM
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I enjoy Bobcat basketball. Started with Larry Hunter era.

Ohio needed a change when LH left. TO'S was not the change we were looking foe. JG was a great hire. He grew well into coaching and learned how to coach in game situations. Got us to a new level. I wished he would have stayed and I never quite got over it (my problem, not his).JC made it interesting for fans but left me scratching my head. Not happy how he left but seems like it is best that he did. SP seems like a good-great hire. I will be in the convo and listening/watching all other games like I have since 1998.

I am ready to move on.

Go Cats.
Last Edited: 4/21/2014 9:31:25 AM by bobcat2nc
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 4/21/2014 10:04 AM
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bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
[QUOTE=colobobcat66]
 Glad you are here cb66. Like everyone else we are looking in for news and notes. I think Ark had an article yesterday on late season signees that I saw on my Twitter timeline yesterda
y.
 . May want to look over in news for that one.  

 


Here's a link to the article bornacat references:

http://www.athensohiotoday.com/sports/ohiouniversity/phillips-far-from-flustered-by-late-signing-period/article_555b7bb6-3761-5e31-b8df-1bb0344c92c8.html

Excellent article.
OUVan
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Posted: 4/21/2014 10:12 AM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more


Good stuff.  I think my favorite part of the article was his quotes about Khari Harley.  Very encouraging.
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Posted: 4/22/2014 2:04 PM
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Ohio freshman forward Antonio Campbell loves the excitement new coach Saul Phillips brings to a basketball court.

“He’s a player’s coach,” Campbell said. “He gets players going with his energy and that’s what players in this new generation want.”
******************************************************************************************

All you need to know about Saul vs Christian. The energy just never seemed to be there from Day One with the current BC coach. 

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Posted: 4/22/2014 2:39 PM
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Guys, these are what I call "style points".  Obviously Saul and JC are light years different in their approach.  But, coaches can be and are successful using a variety of approaches to players and/ or teams.  The real story is in the results.  So, like everyone I am just hoping the results are as good as the last few coaches we've had, keep us in the top 2-4 programs in the MAC, get us to Cleveland, maybe a Championships here and there and into post season play often! 
FearLeon
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Posted: 4/22/2014 3:38 PM
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Casper71 wrote:expand_more
Guys, these are what I call "style points".  Obviously Saul and JC are light years different in their approach.  But, coaches can be and are successful using a variety of approaches to players and/ or teams.  The real story is in the results.  So, like everyone I am just hoping the results are as good as the last few coaches we've had, keep us in the top 2-4 programs in the MAC, get us to Cleveland, maybe a Championships here and there and into post season play often! 


Remember....Saul doesn't have a Sweet 16 team falling into his lap. It's going to take a few years.....

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