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Topic: North Carolina Academic Fraud
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FearLeon
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Posted: 10/24/2014 7:09 PM
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I wonder how many North Carolina Tar Heels should not have been playing against OHIO in the Sweet 16 game??? #Roy #Cheater

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/eye-on-college...
Last Edited: 10/24/2014 7:12:28 PM by FearLeon
davepi2
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:36 AM
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I wonder if there are more then a half dozen at most schools in the power five that don't cheat in this way? North Carolina to their credit admits it.
Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame
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Posted: 10/26/2014 5:45 PM
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davepi2 wrote:expand_more
I wonder if there are more then a half dozen at most schools in the power five that don't cheat in this way? North Carolina to their credit admits it.
This, sadly, is probably accurate. And yet, next time the suggestion of paying players arises, folks'll still insist on the value of the education being compensation enough.
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/26/2014 6:44 PM
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Bobcat Love's Sense of Shame wrote:expand_more
I wonder if there are more then a half dozen at most schools in the power five that don't cheat in this way? North Carolina to their credit admits it.
This, sadly, is probably accurate. And yet, next time the suggestion of paying players arises, folks'll still insist on the value of the education being compensation enough.
Whoa!!! This has been a long term investigation! Only parts of the University admits to this! And let us be practical about this! A school with a below average P5 football school fesses up, while same school which is 110% a basketball school denies, or everyone else is dead, incapicated, or denies!
GoCats105
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Posted: 10/26/2014 7:32 PM
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I interned in an Academic Advising office. Strings get pulled when strings need to get pulled. To what extent and to what length those strings are probably varies by campus. And it probably doesn't happen everywhere, but I'm not naive enough to think that just a small portion of the country is doing something wrong in some way.
BillyTheCat
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Posted: 10/26/2014 9:41 PM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
I interned in an Academic Advising office. Strings get pulled when strings need to get pulled. To what extent and to what length those strings are probably varies by campus. And it probably doesn't happen everywhere, but I'm not naive enough to think that just a small portion of the country is doing something wrong in some way.

+1. And how many worms have gotten out of the can with on-line classes
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/26/2014 11:24 PM
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The UNC thing is the tip of the iceberg, and the iceberg is being explored by many at this point. I suspect that you'll see a lot more stories like this come out over the next few years. This will not help the case for "full cost of education" stipends but will lead to great public cynicism about college athletics. The end result no one knows, but I wouldn't be surprised to see major new restrictions placed on college athletic recruiting and academic monitoring.
Pataskala
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Posted: 10/27/2014 10:45 AM
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BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
I wonder if there are more then a half dozen at most schools in the power five that don't cheat in this way? North Carolina to their credit admits it.
This, sadly, is probably accurate. And yet, next time the suggestion of paying players arises, folks'll still insist on the value of the education being compensation enough.
Whoa!!! This has been a long term investigation! Only parts of the University admits to this! And let us be practical about this! A school with a below average P5 football school fesses up, while same school which is 110% a basketball school denies, or everyone else is dead, incapicated, or denies!
They've admitted it piecemeal, and only as the investigation uncovers more stuff. When their football team was hit with sanctions the past couple years, they didn't say a word about this going back 20-25 years and in other sports.

I'm sure that other "P" schools do this as well, and with their new autonomy this might go away as a violation in the next 5-10 years.
Jeff McKinney
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Posted: 10/27/2014 12:42 PM
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If there is a crack down on academics, it could speed the move toward minor leagues controlled directly by the NFL and NBA. These leagues already exist and could expand as more players decide they don't want to take on the responsibilities of academics at a college.

This is a serious development.

In football, it's possible that the NFL and these P5 schools could come up with an agreement to make the P5 programs minor league affiliates of the NFL teams. I know there are lots of legal barriers to that happening, but things could evolve that way.

Not sure how this will impact college basketball.
GoCats105
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Posted: 10/27/2014 1:29 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
If there is a crack down on academics, it could speed the move toward minor leagues controlled directly by the NFL and NBA. These leagues already exist and could expand as more players decide they don't want to take on the responsibilities of academics at a college.

This is a serious development.

In football, it's possible that the NFL and these P5 schools could come up with an agreement to make the P5 programs minor league affiliates of the NFL teams. I know there are lots of legal barriers to that happening, but things could evolve that way.

Not sure how this will impact college basketball.
My theory is that is what is going to happen, Jeff. Eventually more and more issues will arise and the P5 are going to come to grips with reality that they don't need the NCAA. Really, what does the NCAA provide them? Basically a cost-free labor system of making millions of dollars? Replace the scholarship with salary and there really isn't that much of a difference.

The question I have is how much further will university professors and administrators want to go with this? The minute they go that route, you can no longer view Ohio State, Michigan, Florida State, LSU, or anyone else in the P5 as an institution of higher learning. Unless the universities are strictly sponsors of the minor league team, I can't see that going well. "Buckeye football brought to you by The Ohio State University" doesn't roll off the tongue quite like it is now.

Another interesting thing will be if these kids even get a chance to enroll in school or if it will be treated just like baseball. Or a discount for school after your playing days are over? Then there are Title IX issues and also worker's compensation problems.

The can of worms has been opened and it's just now starting to get peeled back.
Last Edited: 10/27/2014 1:30:59 PM by GoCats105
OhioStunter
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Posted: 10/27/2014 2:17 PM
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One of the key stats here that I wondered about was that 47% of the students involved in the academic fraud allegations were student-athletes. I did not partake in any academic fraud, so my math skills conclude that 53% of the students involved were non-athletes.

Yes, the ratio of athletes involved here is much higher, but this appears to be more than an issue of ONLY athletes getting perks, which is the focus of news and commentary. Why did these other students (the "majority") get perks?

And what is the definition of a "perk"? Being on the road so much, these student-athletes may as well never be in class and are taking these courses remotely. I know that Ohio Athletics would devote study hours for traveling student-athletes where they had time earmarked for schoolwork while on road trips.

I guess what I'm saying is that the student-athletes DO deserve some alternative solutions to completing coursework (extended deadlines, excused absences, tutoring support, etc.), but it should not be unethical (changed grades, work completed by others, phony classes, etc.).
Deciduous Forest Cat
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Posted: 10/27/2014 2:28 PM
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Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
If there is a crack down on academics, it could speed the move toward minor leagues controlled directly by the NFL and NBA. These leagues already exist and could expand as more players decide they don't want to take on the responsibilities of academics at a college.

This is a serious development.

In football, it's possible that the NFL and these P5 schools could come up with an agreement to make the P5 programs minor league affiliates of the NFL teams. I know there are lots of legal barriers to that happening, but things could evolve that way.

Not sure how this will impact college basketball.
It will impact it in that we can't really say "college" basketball without a smirk and a wink. Can we now?
Monroe Slavin
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Posted: 10/27/2014 11:13 PM
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Yes, the push to keep star players eligible because so much money is at stake may end up killing the college-game HUGE dollars golden goose.

It's its own worst enemy.
Last Edited: 10/28/2014 12:37:26 AM by Monroe Slavin
RSBobcat
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Posted: 10/28/2014 12:05 AM
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How about the push that is really needed - before they are out of HS? Before they are even in Kindergarten.......

The socio-economics/politics of the issue are MUCH broader.

What is the priority - and the balance of priorities. Education, or winning some games that people with money pay to watch/attend/fund Greek Temple like facilities for?
RSBobcat
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Posted: 10/28/2014 12:26 AM
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Or we could just make tuition free for "students" (i.e. Germany), avoid the "athletic scholarship" thing altogether, and "pay" the athletes - like the "company" teams of yesteryear? The first intercollegiate sporting event was a Harvard vs Yale rowing teams competition in 1852, sponsored by a railroad company.

I doubt that direction really has legs. P5 vs NFL/NBA? P5 settle for less?

I think the academics issue is gonna come back to bite the P5 in the ass. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
OU_Country
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Posted: 10/28/2014 9:11 AM
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RSBobcat/borna wrote:expand_more
How about the push that is really needed - before they are out of HS? Before they are even in Kindergarten.......

The socio-economics/politics of the issue are MUCH broader.

What is the priority - and the balance of priorities. Education, or winning some games that people with money pay to watch/attend/fund Greek Temple like facilities for?
I agree with you on this one RS. Some athletes are given the idea that this sort of thing is normal at a young age when they don't have a family system that keeps them grounded in what should be priorities.
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Posted: 10/28/2014 9:54 AM
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These joke classes exist at every school including Ohio. I'm not saying they are as extreme as what UNC has going, but I have a laundry list of joke classes that my friends and I took. By joke, I mostly mean easy A. You could still get something out of the class, but everyone got an A.
C Money
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:32 AM
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For what it's worth....

I have had a very notable Ohio student athlete in one of the classes I adjunct. When that student athlete was not completing assignments at the beginning of the year, I contacted the athletic department's academic counselor. It was stressed to me not to give the student athlete any preference in how I handled the situation. We worked out a make-up arrangement that was no different from how other students had been treated in the past, and the athlete was able to catch up.

This particular student athlete was unquestionably a star, and if the athletic department had been inclined to pull strings for student athletes, I have no doubt that they would have attempted to do so in this situation. The fact that it didn't happen, and the fact that it was stressed to me that I should not be giving any extra favors to student athletes, leads me to believe we have little if anything to be concerned about on this front.
OhioStunter
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:54 AM
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C Money wrote:expand_more
For what it's worth....

I have had a very notable Ohio student athlete in one of the classes I adjunct. When that student athlete was not completing assignments at the beginning of the year, I contacted the athletic department's academic counselor. It was stressed to me not to give the student athlete any preference in how I handled the situation. We worked out a make-up arrangement that was no different from how other students had been treated in the past, and the athlete was able to catch up.

This particular student athlete was unquestionably a star, and if the athletic department had been inclined to pull strings for student athletes, I have no doubt that they would have attempted to do so in this situation. The fact that it didn't happen, and the fact that it was stressed to me that I should not be giving any extra favors to student athletes, leads me to believe we have little if anything to be concerned about on this front.
I echo that experience from many years ago. There was some flexibility given to student-athletes, but nothing that would be considered extreme and likely wouldn't have been offered to other students in similar circumstances.
GoCats105
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Posted: 10/28/2014 12:01 PM
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C Money wrote:expand_more
For what it's worth....

I have had a very notable Ohio student athlete in one of the classes I adjunct. When that student athlete was not completing assignments at the beginning of the year, I contacted the athletic department's academic counselor. It was stressed to me not to give the student athlete any preference in how I handled the situation. We worked out a make-up arrangement that was no different from how other students had been treated in the past, and the athlete was able to catch up.

This particular student athlete was unquestionably a star, and if the athletic department had been inclined to pull strings for student athletes, I have no doubt that they would have attempted to do so in this situation. The fact that it didn't happen, and the fact that it was stressed to me that I should not be giving any extra favors to student athletes, leads me to believe we have little if anything to be concerned about on this front.
Nice to hear that Ohio has not went down that road. After hearing the horror stories of the place I was at, it's refreshing be a fan and alumnus of a place doing it the right way.
Mark Lembright '85
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Posted: 10/28/2014 12:22 PM
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C Money wrote:expand_more
For what it's worth....

I have had a very notable Ohio student athlete in one of the classes I adjunct. When that student athlete was not completing assignments at the beginning of the year, I contacted the athletic department's academic counselor. It was stressed to me not to give the student athlete any preference in how I handled the situation. We worked out a make-up arrangement that was no different from how other students had been treated in the past, and the athlete was able to catch up.

This particular student athlete was unquestionably a star, and if the athletic department had been inclined to pull strings for student athletes, I have no doubt that they would have attempted to do so in this situation. The fact that it didn't happen, and the fact that it was stressed to me that I should not be giving any extra favors to student athletes, leads me to believe we have little if anything to be concerned about on this front.
Thanks CMoney and great to hear! I think this is a message about Ohio that needs to be heard.

And it reminds me-at the end of the day I don't really care if the football team is 4-8 and the b-ball team is 5-25 (the fan in me cares a lot!). As a proud alum, if OUr University maintains such academic integrity, that, THAT is all I really care about.
RSBobcat
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Posted: 10/28/2014 11:24 PM
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I think we are more on the "up & up" than most. However, I was though surprised several times my Frosh 77/78 year when a couple athletes I knew somehow managed to come up with class exams the night before the exams. Only reason they came to me with them - they would not have passed without me helping them even though they had the exams right in their hands! In particular - any part that involved an "essay" question - writing. I remember saying - "you can't just write it out now - you have to be doing Something in the classroom tomorrow"............
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Posted: 10/29/2014 7:03 AM
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RSBobcat/borna wrote:expand_more
I think we are more on the "up & up" than most. However, I was though surprised several times my Frosh 77/78 year when a couple athletes I knew somehow managed to come up with class exams the night before the exams. Only reason they came to me with them - they would not have passed without me helping them even though they had the exams right in their hands! In particular - any part that involved an "essay" question - writing. I remember saying - "you can't just write it out now - you have to be doing Something in the classroom tomorrow"............

I was at O.U. in the mid 1970's.

I can't speak about athletes in "major" sports.I can say that soccer players like myself never got any special "help".
Heck,we had problems with some professors if we had to miss an exam for a game.

At that time,students getting copies of exams was not that uncommon.

A number of professsors,especially in business and education curriculums used pretty much the same exams year after year.About the only thing they did was change the order of the questions.

I found this out personally when I had to retake a Zoology class.

Most fraternities had those exams "on file" for brothers to use.

I also heard more then one frat member say that his prof was the same frat as he was so he wasn't worried about getting a bad grade in his class.
Alan Swank
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Posted: 10/29/2014 8:20 AM
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GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
For what it's worth....

I have had a very notable Ohio student athlete in one of the classes I adjunct. When that student athlete was not completing assignments at the beginning of the year, I contacted the athletic department's academic counselor. It was stressed to me not to give the student athlete any preference in how I handled the situation. We worked out a make-up arrangement that was no different from how other students had been treated in the past, and the athlete was able to catch up.

This particular student athlete was unquestionably a star, and if the athletic department had been inclined to pull strings for student athletes, I have no doubt that they would have attempted to do so in this situation. The fact that it didn't happen, and the fact that it was stressed to me that I should not be giving any extra favors to student athletes, leads me to believe we have little if anything to be concerned about on this front.
Nice to hear that Ohio has not went down that road. After hearing the horror stories of the place I was at, it's refreshing be a fan and alumnus of a place doing it the right way.
Sure hope our athletes didn't have the same English prof that you did at OU. "Has not went" - OCF, call your wife. :)
OhioCatFan
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Posted: 10/29/2014 12:05 PM
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Yes, Alan, I've issued a grammar alert. The Grammar Police will be paying a visit to the perp. The particular infraction to which you allude is one of the Grammar Bigot's top priorities in terms of enforcement. However, with these lenient local judges, he'll probably get off with no more than probation. A little jail time would be more appropriate! :-)
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