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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: College Basketball Attendance Woes
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The Optimist
12/21/2016 10:27 AM
Lets keep this going.

YEAR ticket sales as a % of total revenue
2015 4%
2014 5%
2013 4%
2012 4%
2011 3%
2010 4%
2009 4%
2008 4%
2007 4%
2006 5%
2005 4%
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The Optimist
12/21/2016 10:27 AM
YEAR contributions as a % of total revenue
2015 11%
2014 8%
2013 8%
2012 7%
2011 3%
2010 3%
2009 3%
2008 4%
2007 4%
2006 5%
2005 5%
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The Optimist
12/21/2016 10:28 AM
YEAR coaching salaries as a % of total revenue
2015 28%
2014 29%
2013 29%
2012 24%
2011 26%
2010 28%
2009 33%
2008 32%
2007 31%
2006 40%
2005 35%
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The Optimist
12/21/2016 10:43 AM
*drops mic*

2015/2005

TICKET SALES
209%
CONTRIBUTIONS
452%
RIGHTS / LICENSING
270%
STUDENT FEES
160%
TOTAL REVENUES
199%
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OU_Country
12/21/2016 11:11 AM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
The data on subsidies is pretty revealing. The whole MAC and the rest of the G5 live off of student fees. As to sustainability, I guess it's a matter of when enough students/parents rebel. I am not making a pro or con argument because it's been discussed ad nauseam here, but it is a simple fact that most revenue for most (maybe all) G5 athletic departments comes from mandatory student fees.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances /

As it relates to student fees, and parents/students rebelling, what is the approximate number each student fee might be? My math based on the link above, and then looking up the enrollment figures from Fall 2014 (same timeline) is about $479. I suppose that is a higher number than I expected. On the other hand, it's a fraction of the costs that are paid if it's accurate.


(Enrollment stat site: https://www.ohio.edu/instres/enrollstats /)
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OU_Country
12/21/2016 11:13 AM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
*drops mic*

2015/2005

TICKET SALES
209%
CONTRIBUTIONS
452%
RIGHTS / LICENSING
270%
STUDENT FEES
160%
TOTAL REVENUES
199%

Good stuff! I'm Curious - can you share where you found this?
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person
Recovering Journalist
12/21/2016 11:33 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
The data on subsidies is pretty revealing. The whole MAC and the rest of the G5 live off of student fees. As to sustainability, I guess it's a matter of when enough students/parents rebel. I am not making a pro or con argument because it's been discussed ad nauseam here, but it is a simple fact that most revenue for most (maybe all) G5 athletic departments comes from mandatory student fees.

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/finances /

As it relates to student fees, and parents/students rebelling, what is the approximate number each student fee might be? My math based on the link above, and then looking up the enrollment figures from Fall 2014 (same timeline) is about $479. I suppose that is a higher number than I expected. On the other hand, it's a fraction of the costs that are paid if it's accurate.


(Enrollment stat site: https://www.ohio.edu/instres/enrollstats /)
The "general fee" for a full-time student is $671 per semester.

https://www.ohio.edu/finance/bursar/ohioguarantee16-17.cfm

That said, the fee covers more than painting the red ledgers of athletics black. It covers things like access to the rec center, arts programs, student groups, etc. This makes it harder to pin down the exact cost per student for athletics, but according to an A-News piece discussed here last year (*ducks as certain posters throw things and accuse the A-News of being biased/evil/athletics-hating), it is $850 a year.

http://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/ou-s-m-athletics-bu...

Whatever it is, that amount is not optional, and some students are starting to make noise about it.

http://www.athensnews.com/news/campus/survey-ohio-u-grad-...
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Jeff McKinney
12/21/2016 11:41 AM
I attended a game in person at Austin Peay last night. Peay has a good tradition of fan support. Last night they were playing a Lipscomb team from Nashville, 55 miles away. They have a really nice arena with capacity 7700 but now have the upper level curtained off. Official paid attendance 1467. Actual butts in seats maybe 800.

I realize it's the week before Christmas, students probably on break, etc. But this still illustrates the decline in college basketball attendance.

BGSU was smart when they held Stroh Center capacity to 4800. Heck, even Gonzaga, with a national program and in the metro area of Spokane, built an arena with capacity 6500.

I attribute this mainly to the coverage of most events by streaming, the proliferation of entertainment options, and less disposable income for the average Joe.

If Ohio was building a new arena today, and basketball was the main determiner, what would the capacity be? Definitely not more than 10,000; maybe 8,000.
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cbus cat fan
12/21/2016 11:42 AM
Optimist & Recovering Journalist Any idea on what ticket sales are per revenue for places like Texas A&M and Ohio State? I mean there has to be some sort of threshold before changes are made.

As I have said before, the day we start winning people will drive down from Columbus and Cleveland in droves for the games. However, that does have to happen and we have quite a sports legacy compared to other MAC schools like Buffalo, Akron, Eastern Michigan etc. The Bobcats are in much better shape than some Non-Power 5 schools. Some of these non- Power 5 schools are staring into a money pit. They keep thinking they are on Oak Island awaiting the treasure, but all they get are old logs and heartache. I don't want the non-Power 5 to end up being the sports equivalent of Greece someday.
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person
Recovering Journalist
12/21/2016 11:55 AM
cbus cat fan wrote:expand_more
Optimist & Recovering Journalist Any idea on what ticket sales are per revenue for places like Texas A&M and Ohio State? I mean there has to be some sort of threshold before changes are made.
According to this, O$U made $56 million on tickets alone a few years ago. That's likely higher today.

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2015/07/oh...
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greencat
12/21/2016 11:57 AM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
I attended a game in person at Austin Peay last night. Peay has a good tradition of fan support. Last night they were playing a Lipscomb team from Nashville, 55 miles away. They have a really nice arena with capacity 7700 but now have the upper level curtained off. Official paid attendance 1467. Actual butts in seats maybe 800.

I realize it's the week before Christmas, students probably on break, etc. But this still illustrates the decline in college basketball attendance.

BGSU was smart when they held Stroh Center capacity to 4800. Heck, even Gonzaga, with a national program and in the metro area of Spokane, built an arena with capacity 6500.

I attribute this mainly to the coverage of most events by streaming, the proliferation of entertainment options, and less disposable income for the average Joe.

If Ohio was building a new arena today, and basketball was the main determiner, what would the capacity be? Definitely not more than 10,000; maybe 8,000.
Interest in APSU hoops has been dead forever. 20 years ago when MTSU was still in the OVC, they drew pretty good. That was a long time ago.

EA Diddle arena at WKU used to hold many more thousands than it does now.
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OU_Country
12/21/2016 12:21 PM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
I attended a game in person at Austin Peay last night. Peay has a good tradition of fan support. Last night they were playing a Lipscomb team from Nashville, 55 miles away. They have a really nice arena with capacity 7700 but now have the upper level curtained off. Official paid attendance 1467. Actual butts in seats maybe 800.

I realize it's the week before Christmas, students probably on break, etc. But this still illustrates the decline in college basketball attendance.

BGSU was smart when they held Stroh Center capacity to 4800. Heck, even Gonzaga, with a national program and in the metro area of Spokane, built an arena with capacity 6500.

I attribute this mainly to the coverage of most events by streaming, the proliferation of entertainment options, and less disposable income for the average Joe.

If Ohio was building a new arena today, and basketball was the main determiner, what would the capacity be? Definitely not more than 10,000; maybe 8,000.
You bring up something Jeff that I have wondered about since they decided to redo the seats: Why not use that opportunity to kind of shrink capacity in The Convo? Buy seats that are slightly wider, thereby decreasing capacity by 20%. Either that, or the infamous scoreboard conversation would allow for elimination of upper level seats to accommodate that. I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but I have thought we could do with fewer seats.
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Recovering Journalist
12/21/2016 12:33 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
You bring up something Jeff that I have wondered about since they decided to redo the seats: Why not use that opportunity to kind of shrink capacity in The Convo? Buy seats that are slightly wider, thereby decreasing capacity by 20%. Either that, or the infamous scoreboard conversation would allow for elimination of upper level seats to accommodate that. I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but I have thought we could do with fewer seats.
The name of the building answers your question. It fills a few times a year, most notably for commencement. If we're lucky, it fills a few times a year for hoops too. Why incur millions in expenses to shrink it when it functions well as-is and its capacity is needed a handful of times a year?
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BillyTheCat
12/21/2016 12:39 PM
What these figures show us, and nice work on bringing them up, is that OHIO is still battling the issue of putting value into our programs. For decades there was no reason to purchase season tickets or individual tickets. The Athletic Department and Marketing has done a good job, and not only has sales increased but so has the value. This parallels the conversation the other day about people wanting to sit in premium seats for the value of their lesser priced ticket. The OHIO market still has room to grow, but only be continuing to put out a quality product and protecting the value.
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BillyTheCat
12/21/2016 12:43 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
You bring up something Jeff that I have wondered about since they decided to redo the seats: Why not use that opportunity to kind of shrink capacity in The Convo? Buy seats that are slightly wider, thereby decreasing capacity by 20%. Either that, or the infamous scoreboard conversation would allow for elimination of upper level seats to accommodate that. I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but I have thought we could do with fewer seats.
The name of the building answers your question. It fills a few times a year, most notably for commencement. If we're lucky, it fills a few times a year for hoops too. Why incur millions in expenses to shrink it when it functions well as-is and its capacity is needed a handful of times a year?
Speaking of the "name of the building", any word on where we are with the naming rights for the Convo and Peden?
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OU_Country
12/21/2016 12:47 PM
Recovering Journalist wrote:expand_more
You bring up something Jeff that I have wondered about since they decided to redo the seats: Why not use that opportunity to kind of shrink capacity in The Convo? Buy seats that are slightly wider, thereby decreasing capacity by 20%. Either that, or the infamous scoreboard conversation would allow for elimination of upper level seats to accommodate that. I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but I have thought we could do with fewer seats.
The name of the building answers your question. It fills a few times a year, most notably for commencement. If we're lucky, it fills a few times a year for hoops too. Why incur millions in expenses to shrink it when it functions well as-is and its capacity is needed a handful of times a year?
Taking 2,500 seats out for basketball wouldn't hurt a thing. I guess I wasn't aware that, with two commencement ceremonies each spring, that it literally filled to capacity for both.
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Recovering Journalist
12/21/2016 12:55 PM
BillyTheCat wrote:expand_more
Speaking of the "name of the building", any word on where we are with the naming rights for the Convo and Peden?
Call my a cynic, but no news is probably bad news in terms of finding an entity willing to pay what we're asking.
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person
Recovering Journalist
12/21/2016 12:58 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Taking 2,500 seats out for basketball wouldn't hurt a thing. I guess I wasn't aware that, with two commencement ceremonies each spring, that it literally filled to capacity for both.
I don't disagree, and I think we'd have an electric space with something like a 7,500 seat arena. The reality is that we have a 13,000 seat arena that's used for more than just athletics, and any reconfiguration would be paying a lot of money (that we don't have) for atmosphere and optics, which have nebulous value for hoops and negative value for convocations.
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OU_Country
12/21/2016 2:47 PM
No doubt. We have an electric space at times when it's above 8,000 in my opinion, and that's still only 60ish percent full.
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person
Alan Swank
12/21/2016 3:35 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I attended a game in person at Austin Peay last night. Peay has a good tradition of fan support. Last night they were playing a Lipscomb team from Nashville, 55 miles away. They have a really nice arena with capacity 7700 but now have the upper level curtained off. Official paid attendance 1467. Actual butts in seats maybe 800.

I realize it's the week before Christmas, students probably on break, etc. But this still illustrates the decline in college basketball attendance.

BGSU was smart when they held Stroh Center capacity to 4800. Heck, even Gonzaga, with a national program and in the metro area of Spokane, built an arena with capacity 6500.

I attribute this mainly to the coverage of most events by streaming, the proliferation of entertainment options, and less disposable income for the average Joe.

If Ohio was building a new arena today, and basketball was the main determiner, what would the capacity be? Definitely not more than 10,000; maybe 8,000.
You bring up something Jeff that I have wondered about since they decided to redo the seats: Why not use that opportunity to kind of shrink capacity in The Convo? Buy seats that are slightly wider, thereby decreasing capacity by 20%. Either that, or the infamous scoreboard conversation would allow for elimination of upper level seats to accommodate that. I definitely don't want to go down that rabbit hole, but I have thought we could do with fewer seats.
We just replaced every seat in the building.
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The Optimist
12/21/2016 3:50 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
*drops mic*

2015/2005

TICKET SALES
209%
CONTRIBUTIONS
452%
RIGHTS / LICENSING
270%
STUDENT FEES
160%
TOTAL REVENUES
199%

Good stuff! I'm Curious - can you share where you found this?

On the link RJ posted, if you click onto each school it shows a more detailed breakdown of revenue and expenses. I calculated the % in excel based on those figures.

It's very interesting to look at.
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The Optimist
12/21/2016 4:09 PM
cbus cat fan wrote:expand_more
Optimist & Recovering Journalist Any idea on what ticket sales are per revenue for places like Texas A&M and Ohio State? I mean there has to be some sort of threshold before changes are made.

As I have said before, the day we start winning people will drive down from Columbus and Cleveland in droves for the games. However, that does have to happen and we have quite a sports legacy compared to other MAC schools like Buffalo, Akron, Eastern Michigan etc. The Bobcats are in much better shape than some Non-Power 5 schools. Some of these non- Power 5 schools are staring into a money pit. They keep thinking they are on Oak Island awaiting the treasure, but all they get are old logs and heartache. I don't want the non-Power 5 to end up being the sports equivalent of Greece someday.

Interestingly, OSU's sources of revenue as a percentage of total revenue are basically unchanged the last 10 years.

OSU
YEAR TICKET SALES
2015 $63,149,938 38%
2005 $34,073,089 38%

CONTRIBUTIONS
$32,951,072 20%
$19,829,556 22%

RIGHTS / LICENSING
$57,144,221 34%
$25,937,634 29%

TOTAL REVENUES (172% 15 v 05)
$167,166,065
$89,700,979
Last Edited: 12/21/2016 4:10:06 PM by The Optimist
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OU_Country
12/21/2016 4:34 PM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
*drops mic*

2015/2005

TICKET SALES
209%
CONTRIBUTIONS
452%
RIGHTS / LICENSING
270%
STUDENT FEES
160%
TOTAL REVENUES
199%

Good stuff! I'm Curious - can you share where you found this?

On the link RJ posted, if you click onto each school it shows a more detailed breakdown of revenue and expenses. I calculated the % in excel based on those figures.

It's very interesting to look at.
So we're talking overall NCAA numbers here?
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The Optimist
12/21/2016 5:17 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
*drops mic*

2015/2005

TICKET SALES
209%
CONTRIBUTIONS
452%
RIGHTS / LICENSING
270%
STUDENT FEES
160%
TOTAL REVENUES
199%

Good stuff! I'm Curious - can you share where you found this?

On the link RJ posted, if you click onto each school it shows a more detailed breakdown of revenue and expenses. I calculated the % in excel based on those figures.

It's very interesting to look at.
So we're talking overall NCAA numbers here?
No those were all specific to Ohio.
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TWT
12/21/2016 8:03 PM
Thanks for the numbers. Going back to my point on how the coverage has changed I was watching Virginia Tech last night on ESPNU against Charleston Southern. ACC school and Joe Lunardi forecasting a 9 seed. Every 5 minutes they pushed an add for the upcoming Kentucky-Louisville game that is playing tonight. Twenty years an ACC school with tourney prospects would be talked up all over ESPN Sportscenter but now viewed as a meaningless undercard to the main event. ESPN would rather spend hours talking about something Kirk Cousins did than cover college basketball in depth.
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