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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: OHSAA Officals clarify rules.
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bornacatfan
1/8/2017 10:45 AM
Interesting release from the High School Officials on Rules. One of our BA posters is an aspiring official. Not sure if they addressed these as part of their yearly officials meetings and training sessions or if this is in response to something else.

http://bcrefs.com/MisunderstoodRules.htm
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Alan Swank
1/8/2017 10:55 AM
Have any of these changed in the last 11 years since this was released by the local basketball officials association?
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bornacatfan
1/8/2017 12:06 PM
I read through each one of them...Per your request I went back through the "points of emphasis" for each year and rule changes since this was written and cross checked. None of these have changed in the rules or interpretations.....nor have the folks in the stands yelling things like "Over the back", "3 seconds", "Traveling" "kick!" or "Thas a CHARGE!". Did you find one that you see is in question? BE happy to research it for ya.... Must still be pertinent as it came across my feed as a release.
Last Edited: 1/8/2017 12:08:11 PM by bornacatfan
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bobcat695
1/8/2017 12:38 PM
Two things that have become points of emphasis the past two seasons will be interesting to watch:

First, there are supposed to be tighter restrictions on constant hand-checking. Once an offensive player has their progress impeded by the defensive player's hands, it should be an instant whistle. The hardest things to teach defensively is for players to move their feet to get in position. The second rule I've seen enforced multiple times already this season relates to blocking out the FT shooter. Most of us know that the FT shooter (as well as those outside the lane) cannot cross the line until the ball hits the rim. Conversely, no defensive player is allowed to cross the line with their feet or backside to block out the FT shooter until the ball has hit the rim. I've seen this called as a foul (not a lane violation) 3 times already this season.

I'm thankful my assistant coach is still a licensed official in both OH/WV so I know every rule that officials are supposed to be enforcing before I look like a fool for not knowing rule changes.
Last Edited: 1/8/2017 6:44:03 PM by bobcat695
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Alan Swank
1/8/2017 1:24 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
I read through each one of them...Per your request I went back through the "points of emphasis" for each year and rule changes since this was written and cross checked. None of these have changed in the rules or interpretations.....nor have the folks in the stands yelling things like "Over the back", "3 seconds", "Traveling" "kick!" or "Thas a CHARGE!". Did you find one that you see is in question? BE happy to research it for ya.... Must still be pertinent as it came across my feed as a release.
None that I'm aware of - was just curious since the "rules" are constantly changing. The over the back thing is an interesting. I find that fans in the stands in rural settings tend to yell that more than the fans in urban settings. Same with 3 seconds. At least that's been my observation comparing games in Akron and those in southeast Ohio.
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GroverBall
1/8/2017 5:20 PM
Can anyone clarify any differences in any of these rules with the NCAA?

And NBA?

Thanks.
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bornacatfan
1/8/2017 5:32 PM
GroverBall wrote:expand_more
Can anyone clarify any differences in any of these rules with the NCAA?

And NBA?

Thanks.


Pretty consistent on the rules reviewed in the piece at all levels....different tolerances level to level but the NBA does not use a 10 sec rule..it is 8 sec and of course....the obvious enforcement of Travels and pivot foot. Just saw a game where a pro took 9 steps and did not get whistled. The announcers telestrated each step and counted them out.

HOw long since Alan has been in Akron watching games on a regular basis? My guess is 10 years before the article questioned was written. Rules do not change as much as points of emphasis and what they are calling. THe obvious changes are a shorter shot clock, moving the rebounding positions on the FT lane, 5 sec closely guarded rules......but the points of emphasis, hand checks, fouling a shooter in the air, carry, etc are what people have trouble with and officials are inconsistent with resulting in ambiguity and upset fans.
Last Edited: 1/8/2017 5:41:01 PM by bornacatfan
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GroverBall
1/8/2017 5:39 PM
For some reason I thought the ball could legally travel over the backboard in the NBA.
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Alan Swank
1/8/2017 8:57 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
Can anyone clarify any differences in any of these rules with the NCAA?

And NBA?

Thanks.


Pretty consistent on the rules reviewed in the piece at all levels....different tolerances level to level but the NBA does not use a 10 sec rule..it is 8 sec and of course....the obvious enforcement of Travels and pivot foot. Just saw a game where a pro took 9 steps and did not get whistled. The announcers telestrated each step and counted them out.

HOw long since Alan has been in Akron watching games on a regular basis? My guess is 10 years before the article questioned was written. Rules do not change as much as points of emphasis and what they are calling. THe obvious changes are a shorter shot clock, moving the rebounding positions on the FT lane, 5 sec closely guarded rules......but the points of emphasis, hand checks, fouling a shooter in the air, carry, etc are what people have trouble with and officials are inconsistent with resulting in ambiguity and upset fans.
Bad guess. My parents (87 and 82) still live there and up until a year or two ago, regularly attended Akron East games which I often joined them for (senior citizens get into Akron City Schools athletic events for free). In fact I just talked with them 10 minutes ago to see how the Orientals/Dragons are doing this year. Even though they made it to the second round of the state football playoffs and have three kids who have signed with Akron, basketball season isn't going so well.
Last Edited: 1/8/2017 9:11:47 PM by Alan Swank
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BillyTheCat
1/8/2017 9:15 PM
This document has been around for 10 years and was originally a filler for web content and used as a general training aid for by the OHSAA. In basketball they send out about 3 bulletins per season regarding any issues that need clarified. The latest came out right before Christmas, however this one is a 2006 release.
Last Edited: 1/8/2017 9:21:55 PM by BillyTheCat
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OhioCatFan
1/8/2017 11:25 PM
"5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not traveling, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained! (Running while fumbling is not traveling!) Comment: You can fumble a pass, recover it and legally begin a dribble. This is not a double dribble. If the player bats the ball to the floor in a controlling fashion, picks the ball up, then begins to dribble, you now have a violation."

This is the one that I find people don't understand the most, including some announcers who will say when a player fumbles or muffs a catch and then recovers the ball and starts a dribble that the player traveled but it wasn't called.

I've even run into this misinterpretation in pickup games where a player is called for traveling because he muffed a pass and then regained control of the ball before starting a dribble. [I have personally been the victim of these "bad calls" as my ability to muff good passes is legendary.]
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Ted Thompson
1/8/2017 11:49 PM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
"5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not traveling, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained! (Running while fumbling is not traveling!) Comment: You can fumble a pass, recover it and legally begin a dribble. This is not a double dribble. If the player bats the ball to the floor in a controlling fashion, picks the ball up, then begins to dribble, you now have a violation."

This is the one that I find people don't understand the most, including some announcers who will say when a player fumbles or muffs a catch and then recovers the ball and starts a dribble that the player traveled but it wasn't called.

I've even run into this misinterpretation in pickup games where a player is called for traveling because he muffed a pass and then regained control of the ball before starting a dribble. [I have personally been the victim of these "bad calls" as my ability to muff good passes is legendary.]
One of my pet peeves of basketball. I have always felt the fumble should be a dribble. Why bail someone out for a low pass or mishandle? A lot of players use the fumble to get themselves better positioning for shots/penetration.
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GoCats105
1/9/2017 7:40 AM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
"5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not traveling, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained! (Running while fumbling is not traveling!) Comment: You can fumble a pass, recover it and legally begin a dribble. This is not a double dribble. If the player bats the ball to the floor in a controlling fashion, picks the ball up, then begins to dribble, you now have a violation."

This is the one that I find people don't understand the most, including some announcers who will say when a player fumbles or muffs a catch and then recovers the ball and starts a dribble that the player traveled but it wasn't called.

I've even run into this misinterpretation in pickup games where a player is called for traveling because he muffed a pass and then regained control of the ball before starting a dribble. [I have personally been the victim of these "bad calls" as my ability to muff good passes is legendary.]
One of my pet peeves of basketball. I have always felt the fumble should be a dribble. Why bail someone out for a low pass or mishandle? A lot of players use the fumble to get themselves better positioning for shots/penetration.
I had gotten called for double dribbling a few times with this rule. So those refs didn't know the actual rule and agree with you Ted.
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UpSan Bobcat
1/9/2017 10:02 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
"5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not traveling, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained! (Running while fumbling is not traveling!) Comment: You can fumble a pass, recover it and legally begin a dribble. This is not a double dribble. If the player bats the ball to the floor in a controlling fashion, picks the ball up, then begins to dribble, you now have a violation."

This is the one that I find people don't understand the most, including some announcers who will say when a player fumbles or muffs a catch and then recovers the ball and starts a dribble that the player traveled but it wasn't called.

I've even run into this misinterpretation in pickup games where a player is called for traveling because he muffed a pass and then regained control of the ball before starting a dribble. [I have personally been the victim of these "bad calls" as my ability to muff good passes is legendary.]
One of my pet peeves of basketball. I have always felt the fumble should be a dribble. Why bail someone out for a low pass or mishandle? A lot of players use the fumble to get themselves better positioning for shots/penetration.
I had gotten called for double dribbling a few times with this rule. So those refs didn't know the actual rule and agree with you Ted.
There is a little room for interpretation. If the ref determines the ball was batted "to the floor in a controlling fashion," then that constitutes a dribble.
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Ted Thompson
1/9/2017 10:04 AM
UpSan Bobcat wrote:expand_more
"5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not traveling, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained! (Running while fumbling is not traveling!) Comment: You can fumble a pass, recover it and legally begin a dribble. This is not a double dribble. If the player bats the ball to the floor in a controlling fashion, picks the ball up, then begins to dribble, you now have a violation."

This is the one that I find people don't understand the most, including some announcers who will say when a player fumbles or muffs a catch and then recovers the ball and starts a dribble that the player traveled but it wasn't called.

I've even run into this misinterpretation in pickup games where a player is called for traveling because he muffed a pass and then regained control of the ball before starting a dribble. [I have personally been the victim of these "bad calls" as my ability to muff good passes is legendary.]
One of my pet peeves of basketball. I have always felt the fumble should be a dribble. Why bail someone out for a low pass or mishandle? A lot of players use the fumble to get themselves better positioning for shots/penetration.
I had gotten called for double dribbling a few times with this rule. So those refs didn't know the actual rule and agree with you Ted.
There is a little room for interpretation. If the ref determines the ball was batted "to the floor in a controlling fashion," then that constitutes a dribble.
The referee's job is hard enough. The fumble counts as a dribble and that's one less judgement call.
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GoCats105
1/9/2017 10:09 AM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
"5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not traveling, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained! (Running while fumbling is not traveling!) Comment: You can fumble a pass, recover it and legally begin a dribble. This is not a double dribble. If the player bats the ball to the floor in a controlling fashion, picks the ball up, then begins to dribble, you now have a violation."

This is the one that I find people don't understand the most, including some announcers who will say when a player fumbles or muffs a catch and then recovers the ball and starts a dribble that the player traveled but it wasn't called.

I've even run into this misinterpretation in pickup games where a player is called for traveling because he muffed a pass and then regained control of the ball before starting a dribble. [I have personally been the victim of these "bad calls" as my ability to muff good passes is legendary.]
One of my pet peeves of basketball. I have always felt the fumble should be a dribble. Why bail someone out for a low pass or mishandle? A lot of players use the fumble to get themselves better positioning for shots/penetration.
I had gotten called for double dribbling a few times with this rule. So those refs didn't know the actual rule and agree with you Ted.
There is a little room for interpretation. If the ref determines the ball was batted "to the floor in a controlling fashion," then that constitutes a dribble.
The referee's job is hard enough. The fumble counts as a dribble and that's one less judgement call.
I agree with you Ted. Even when I did it I thought for a second "do I still have my dribble?" and it turns out I didn't. But yeah I think the less confusing the rule is the easier it makes it on everyone. Kinda teaches kids to catch it cleanly too.
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OhioCatFan
1/9/2017 10:48 AM
If the rule was changed to Ted's liking, I think it would not be logical. How can one travel if one never has possession of the ball? I understand officials having the flexibility of calling a travel if it's clear it's not really a fumble but an intentional bat of the ball. Now if a bat flies over and disrupts play, I believe there is suppose to be 30-minute delay after the last sighting. ;-)
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Ted Thompson
1/9/2017 10:52 AM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
"5. A player can always recover his/her fumbled ball; a fumble is not a dribble, and any steps taken during recovery are not traveling, regardless of progress made and/or advantage gained! (Running while fumbling is not traveling!) Comment: You can fumble a pass, recover it and legally begin a dribble. This is not a double dribble. If the player bats the ball to the floor in a controlling fashion, picks the ball up, then begins to dribble, you now have a violation."

This is the one that I find people don't understand the most, including some announcers who will say when a player fumbles or muffs a catch and then recovers the ball and starts a dribble that the player traveled but it wasn't called.

I've even run into this misinterpretation in pickup games where a player is called for traveling because he muffed a pass and then regained control of the ball before starting a dribble. [I have personally been the victim of these "bad calls" as my ability to muff good passes is legendary.]
One of my pet peeves of basketball. I have always felt the fumble should be a dribble. Why bail someone out for a low pass or mishandle? A lot of players use the fumble to get themselves better positioning for shots/penetration.
I had gotten called for double dribbling a few times with this rule. So those refs didn't know the actual rule and agree with you Ted.
There is a little room for interpretation. If the ref determines the ball was batted "to the floor in a controlling fashion," then that constitutes a dribble.
The referee's job is hard enough. The fumble counts as a dribble and that's one less judgement call.
I agree with you Ted. Even when I did it I thought for a second "do I still have my dribble?" and it turns out I didn't. But yeah I think the less confusing the rule is the easier it makes it on everyone. Kinda teaches kids to catch it cleanly too.
The defender doesn't know either. Just call it a used dribble and move on.
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GoCats105
1/9/2017 11:21 AM
OhioCatFan wrote:expand_more
If the rule was changed to Ted's liking, I think it would not be logical. How can one travel if one never has possession of the ball? I understand officials having the flexibility of calling a travel if it's clear it's not really a fumble but an intentional bat of the ball. Now if a bat flies over and disrupts play, I believe there is suppose to be 30-minute delay after the last sighting. ;-)
But your team had possession of the ball and you fumbled it away. Learn to pass and catch cleanly and it's not an issue. Of course if a defender disrupts the trajectory of the ball then it could be a different rule entirely.
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shabamon
1/9/2017 9:32 PM
Per the link:

1) A lot of parents scream for this one.

2) Correct, but here's a little known rule: a player may not intentionally go out of bounds to move without the ball, like on a cut. Only ever seen it called once.

5) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-pYW5Vt0PU NOT a violation

7) Coaches always go nuts with the high dribble. Yes, it looks ugly, but a player can dribble higher than their head if they want to.

9) Another often misinterpreted rule in low level rec ball. I'm often explaining this one to coaches at least once every three weeks.

21) Admittedly, I got this one wrong while watching our game against Kent. When there's a shooting foul followed by a technical foul, you shoot however many shots you'd usually get for shooting foul + two more technical free throws. Not the case with intentional fouls. Tony was fouled intentionally on his dunk but he made the basket but he shot only two free throws. I thought he was supposed to get three (one for the made basket, two more for the intentional). Better to learn it on my couch rather than on the court. Even Saul looked like he wanted an explanation.

24) Good luck to my fellow officials if you ever have to explain that one to a coach.

Good youtubes:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLI4T_SHvEVdekqAKvW-rxQ
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIzfwhO-xU3QPZQYfJhowmQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcoUc6K-g9k
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OUVan
1/10/2017 11:33 AM
shabamon wrote:expand_more
9) Another often misinterpreted rule in low level rec ball. I'm often explaining this one to coaches at least once every three weeks.

21) Admittedly, I got this one wrong while watching our game against Kent. When there's a shooting foul followed by a technical foul, you shoot however many shots you'd usually get for shooting foul + two more technical free throws. Not the case with intentional fouls. Tony was fouled intentionally on his dunk but he made the basket but he shot only two free throws. I thought he was supposed to get three (one for the made basket, two more for the intentional). Better to learn it on my couch rather than on the court. Even Saul looked like he wanted an explanation.
^ I'll admit that I was wrong about both of these.

10) My son's team had a travel called on them this weekend because the ref said the inbounder (after a turnover) moved his pivot foot. Our coach tried to explain it to the refs and they huddled and still got it wrong.

23) Another one I didn't know but it makes sense when you think about it. It just sure looks like a travel if the player is stopped as opposed to jumping to pass or shoot. Typically in a situation where a player just lifts their pivot foot they are either dragging it or put it back down.
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GoCats105
1/10/2017 12:00 PM
#3 used to be and still is my coach's biggest pet peeve. We've had a few tall guys in our program get called for many a "over the back" foul simply for being tall.
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OU_Country
1/10/2017 12:48 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
#3 used to be and still is my coach's biggest pet peeve. We've had a few tall guys in our program get called for many a "over the back" foul simply for being tall.
It's shouted from the stands because it seems like it has been ingrained in a whole lot of people that there is such a thing as an "over the back foul". At a younger point in my life, I was one of those people because I was taught that at a young age.

As a side note, I really like this thread, and ones like it. Kudos to those offering knowledgeable input, and to borna for starting it. THIS is an area where this board excels at times when we educate each other.
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Brian Smith (No, not that one)
1/10/2017 4:49 PM
Over the back is short-hand for being pushed in the back. So while it's technically wrong, that's what people are trying to express.

In fact, I've heard actual coaches call for an "over the back" call from the bench. Granted, these are usually really bad coaches...
Last Edited: 1/10/2017 4:49:57 PM by Brian Smith (No, not that one)
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bobcatsquared
1/10/2017 5:00 PM
^Disagree. I consider it a matter of semantics. If a defensive player has inside position and the player he blocked out goes through him, pushes him from behind, call it what you want, "over the back" even, it should be a foul. The term might be incorrect, but it should be a foul if the player gains an unfair advantage v. the player who gained inside position.
Last Edited: 1/10/2017 5:00:34 PM by bobcatsquared
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