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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Simmons foul . . . where he apparently had a loose tooth
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OhioCatFan
2/25/2017 11:45 PM
I'd like an expert opinion on the foul that Simmons was called for relatively late in the second half. He got an elbow to the mouth, but was called for the foul. There certainly was contact before the elbow. My questions are: 1. was this a legitimate foul call? 2. Was the elbow intentional and should that have resulted in technical?

It seemed to me that after the elbow to his mouth that Simmons was never the same player the rest of the night. It seemed to really take something out of him.
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MonroeClassmate
2/26/2017 12:17 AM
I don't know about MAC refs. They seem to miss calls on travels and drives to the hoop and contact.

In Friday night's match of Central and Toledo, Keene on offense late in the game committed an offensive foul. He had a mild reaction that he probably didn't think it should have been called or if called it should have been on the defensive player.

He quickly composed himself and innocently bounced the ball towards the ref who had just turned towards the scoring table to give the number when the ball hits him and the baseline ref comes out and T's up Keene. A real chicken shid call. There absolutely did not appear to be any unsportsman like conduct committed by the nation's leading scorer

On the Simmons tooth play, I recall Simmons nearly swiping the ball but didn't and then had a second chance at the ball and then it very clearly looked like the Kent player threw a punch Simmons way. The two refs talked and went to the monitor and you guys watching TV probably saw it better then a fan in the stands who doesn't have the benefit of a play back.

While the two refs were at the monitor, Tommy Threeman went to get current stat sheets which is right next to the monitor. The one ref seemed to give Tommy a dirty look as if Tommy was trying to look over the refs shoulder to see some top secret view on the screen! Tommy appeared to say, Hey, I'm here for the stat sheets pal.
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Roasting Joe
2/26/2017 1:05 AM
I watched the replay on WATCHESPN3, I don't believe the elbow to the mouth was intentional, but in no way was it a foul by Jaaron! At the very least it was incidental contact. Several questionable calls and no calls last 8 minutes which contributed to our loss (Kaminski had ball slapped out of his hand and fouls called on Mike Lester shortly after that) We also made some mistakes that puzzle me. 10 second call on Jaaron was too close for me to call as he was crossing midcourt at 20 seconds on the shot clock and have no clue why we fouled with 36 seconds left and only down 1 point!
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SBH
2/26/2017 10:16 AM
Jaaron was out of control on several second half possessions. That tends to work against you when you think you should get calls.
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Deciduous Forest Cat
2/26/2017 11:46 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Jaaron was out of control on several second half possessions. That tends to work against you when you think you should get calls.
I agree. As good as he's been lately, he really had one of those "burn the tape" games. He was playing very desperate even when we still had the lead. We needed a distributor. At the same time, it had to be frustrating because we just couldn't hit water if we fell out of a *ing boat in the second half.

When KK nearly comes up with that Larry Bird-esque steal near the end and the Kent guy ends up with it and desperately slings it back inbounds and it hits their guy on the break like a wide receiver in stride, it's just not your night.
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FearLeon
2/26/2017 12:14 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
Jaaron was out of control on several second half possessions. That tends to work against you when you think you should get calls.
I agree. As good as he's been lately, he really had one of those "burn the tape" games. He was playing very desperate even when we still had the lead. We needed a distributor. At the same time, it had to be frustrating because we just couldn't hit water if we fell out of a *ing boat in the second half.

When KK nearly comes up with that Larry Bird-esque steal near the end and the Kent guy ends up with it and desperately slings it back inbounds and it hits their guy on the break like a wide receiver in stride, it's just not your night.
The most glaring mistake Simmons made was intentionally fouling down 1...with 36-40 seconds left. That made no sense at all....none.
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bobcatsquared
2/26/2017 12:48 PM
Agree, Fearleon. Sadly, JS was about the third Bobcat attempting to foul on purpose, down 1 with about 40 seconds left. Gotta know time and situation.
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Alan Swank
2/26/2017 1:03 PM
Good call by the official. Offensive player was jumping in the air as he moved down court with the ball in both hands and his arm/elbow caught Simmons in the mouth. Watched it 10 times today and came to the same conclusion.
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Eagle66
2/26/2017 1:12 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Good call by the official. Offensive player was jumping in the air as he moved down court with the ball in both hands and his arm/elbow caught Simmons in the mouth. Watched it 10 times today and came to the same conclusion. [/QUOTE]
Unless they have since changed the interpretation of the rule, it doesn't matter if he has the ball in both hands or not, nor does it matter if he was jumping. An elbow to the head (even if its "non-excessive") should be considered a flagrant 1 foul.

[quote]An example of a Flagrant 1 foul would be when a player swings an elbow and makes illegal, non-excessive contact with an opponent above the shoulders. The team whose player was struck would receive two free throws and possession of the ball.


http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/2011-05-26/prop-approves-ru...
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Alan Swank
2/26/2017 2:32 PM
Eagle66 wrote:expand_more
Good call by the official. Offensive player was jumping in the air as he moved down court with the ball in both hands and his arm/elbow caught Simmons in the mouth. Watched it 10 times today and came to the same conclusion.

Unless they have since changed the interpretation of the rule, it doesn't matter if he has the ball in both hands or not, nor does it matter if he was jumping. An elbow to the head (even if its "non-excessive") should be considered a flagrant 1 foul.

An example of a Flagrant 1 foul would be when a player swings an elbow and makes illegal, non-excessive contact with an opponent above the shoulders. The team whose player was struck would receive two free throws and possession of the ball.


http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/2011-05-26/prop-approves-ru...
The operative word here is "swings." There was no swinging going on. He was simply raising the ball with both arms in front of his body as we all have done if we are trying to pass the ball ahead on a fast break. Unfortunately Simmons was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Those things happen.
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Eagle66
2/26/2017 4:17 PM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
Good call by the official. Offensive player was jumping in the air as he moved down court with the ball in both hands and his arm/elbow caught Simmons in the mouth. Watched it 10 times today and came to the same conclusion.

Unless they have since changed the interpretation of the rule, it doesn't matter if he has the ball in both hands or not, nor does it matter if he was jumping. An elbow to the head (even if its "non-excessive") should be considered a flagrant 1 foul.

An example of a Flagrant 1 foul would be when a player swings an elbow and makes illegal, non-excessive contact with an opponent above the shoulders. The team whose player was struck would receive two free throws and possession of the ball.


http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/2011-05-26/prop-approves-ru...
The operative word here is "swings." There was no swinging going on. He was simply raising the ball with both arms in front of his body as we all have done if we are trying to pass the ball ahead on a fast break. Unfortunately Simmons was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Those things happen.
Agree to disagree.
Last Edited: 2/26/2017 4:19:13 PM by Eagle66
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Alan Swank
2/26/2017 10:00 PM
Eagle66 wrote:expand_more
Good call by the official. Offensive player was jumping in the air as he moved down court with the ball in both hands and his arm/elbow caught Simmons in the mouth. Watched it 10 times today and came to the same conclusion.

Unless they have since changed the interpretation of the rule, it doesn't matter if he has the ball in both hands or not, nor does it matter if he was jumping. An elbow to the head (even if its "non-excessive") should be considered a flagrant 1 foul.

An example of a Flagrant 1 foul would be when a player swings an elbow and makes illegal, non-excessive contact with an opponent above the shoulders. The team whose player was struck would receive two free throws and possession of the ball.


http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/2011-05-26/prop-approves-ru...
The operative word here is "swings." There was no swinging going on. He was simply raising the ball with both arms in front of his body as we all have done if we are trying to pass the ball ahead on a fast break. Unfortunately Simmons was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Those things happen.
Agree to disagree.
Then you never played 3 on 3 possession. Simply a point of reference for the discussion.
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BillyTheCat
2/26/2017 10:06 PM
Eagle66 wrote:expand_more
Good call by the official. Offensive player was jumping in the air as he moved down court with the ball in both hands and his arm/elbow caught Simmons in the mouth. Watched it 10 times today and came to the same conclusion.

Unless they have since changed the interpretation of the rule, it doesn't matter if he has the ball in both hands or not, nor does it matter if he was jumping. An elbow to the head (even if its "non-excessive") should be considered a flagrant 1 foul.

An example of a Flagrant 1 foul would be when a player swings an elbow and makes illegal, non-excessive contact with an opponent above the shoulders. The team whose player was struck would receive two free throws and possession of the ball.


http://www.ncaa.com/news/ncaa/2011-05-26/prop-approves-ru...
The operative word here is "swings." There was no swinging going on. He was simply raising the ball with both arms in front of his body as we all have done if we are trying to pass the ball ahead on a fast break. Unfortunately Simmons was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Those things happen.
Agree to disagree.
You can agree to disagree all you want, but if the act is not intentional or the result of an intentional act it is simply not a Flagrant 1 foul, and probably not necessarily even a common foul.
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RSBobcat
2/26/2017 11:17 PM
It wasn't a foul - That was my initial take and as well watching replays. Simmons I think just tried to do too much all himself late game.
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OU_Country
2/27/2017 10:18 AM
SBH wrote:expand_more
Jaaron was out of control on several second half possessions. That tends to work against you when you think you should get calls. [/QUOTE][QUOTE=RSBobcat] It wasn't a foul - That was my initial take and as well watching replays. Simmons I think just tried to do too much all himself late game.
Jaaron has a few moments like that, in games like this one, where he forces the issue and it becomes a negative over the course of a few possessions. The will to win, the determination, and the willingness to carry the team on his back I admire. I just wish he'd go into those situations looking for the pass rather than trying to plow through two players on his own.

Obviously he brings much, much more positives than negatives, so I don't dwell on it. As a student of the game, I hope he learns from it as he watches film so that the next time against Kent (hope there is one!) he'll find the open shooter.
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