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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Random Dambrot thoughts
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Ohio69
3/28/2017 4:49 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
I don't give Dambrot or Akron a hard time about any Lebron relations/influence because I wish we had the same thing at Ohio. An NBA all-time great willing to donate his time and $ to Ohio. Would be really nice.
Whoa whoa whoa, it's MANDATORY that fun be made of Akron for giving away a bobblehead of Lebron in a Zips uniform.
I stand corrected !
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TheRealMikeDrake
3/28/2017 5:08 PM
Is the A-10 TV deal that lucrative? This link mentions ~350k per school per year for that revenue.

http://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012/10/3/3448664/new-atl...

The glaring benefit for an A-10 school like Duquense to me would be the NCAA Tournament credits. That conference probably pulls in 40-ish units @250k or so, compared to our conferences one-and-done (unless we just get an auto-bid going forward, make it happen Steinbrecher). If the A-10 weights their allocation to reward schools who earn the units, that could penalize the bottom schools some, but they would still have some Xavier/Temple/Butler credits they would get an increased payout for I'd think.
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Bobcatfanatic
3/28/2017 6:02 PM
The play a lot of games at Pittsburgh Paints Arena, it's right across the street from the campus
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GraffZ06
3/28/2017 7:43 PM
Deciduous Forest Cat wrote:expand_more
is it really just NCAA tournament money that allows Duquesne (Duquesne!) to pay a coach a freaking million/year? They have a high school gym they barely draw flies to. is it the lack of football? Are they supported by student fees? Do they have deep pockets endowing the inflated coach salaries?
See the actual breakdown in money I posted here last week.

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

Basically, over the last 7 years the A10 has earned ~$440M in NCAA tourney money. That's $62.85M per year. In that time the MAC has earned ~$96M in NCAA tourney money, or $13.81M per year. Assuming (not sure) the A10 and MAC both split that equally between all schools (14 in A10, 12 in MAC) then it breaks down as $4.489M/year per school in A10 to $1.151M/year per school in MAC. That's $3.3M more per year.

Add in the fact that they spend $0 on football vs. whatever we spend.

Add in the aforementioned A10 TV deal on NBC/CBS vs. MAC deal on TimeWarner/Spectrum.

They could probably draw nobody to their games and STILL afford $5M more a year on their basketball budget.
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Ted Thompson
3/28/2017 8:30 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
is it really just NCAA tournament money that allows Duquesne (Duquesne!) to pay a coach a freaking million/year? They have a high school gym they barely draw flies to. is it the lack of football? Are they supported by student fees? Do they have deep pockets endowing the inflated coach salaries?


See the actual breakdown in money I posted here last week.

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

Basically, over the last 7 years the A10 has earned ~$440M in NCAA tourney money. That's $62.85M per year. In that time the MAC has earned ~$96M in NCAA tourney money, or $13.81M per year. Assuming (not sure) the A10 and MAC both split that equally between all schools (14 in A10, 12 in MAC) then it breaks down as $4.489M/year per school in A10 to $1.151M/year per school in MAC. That's $3.3M more per year.

Add in the fact that they spend $0 on football vs. whatever we spend.

Add in the aforementioned A10 TV deal on NBC/CBS vs. MAC deal on TimeWarner/Spectrum.

They could probably draw nobody to their games and STILL afford $5M more a year on their basketball budget. 

How are you coming up with these numbers? They appear to be tremendously overstated.

Also, the A-10 has football. UMass ring any bells. Duquesne is FCS, etc.

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Ted Thompson
3/28/2017 8:56 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
is it really just NCAA tournament money that allows Duquesne (Duquesne!) to pay a coach a freaking million/year? They have a high school gym they barely draw flies to. is it the lack of football? Are they supported by student fees? Do they have deep pockets endowing the inflated coach salaries?


See the actual breakdown in money I posted here last week.

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

Basically, over the last 7 years the A10 has earned ~$440M in NCAA tourney money. That's $62.85M per year. In that time the MAC has earned ~$96M in NCAA tourney money, or $13.81M per year. Assuming (not sure) the A10 and MAC both split that equally between all schools (14 in A10, 12 in MAC) then it breaks down as $4.489M/year per school in A10 to $1.151M/year per school in MAC. That's $3.3M more per year.

Add in the fact that they spend $0 on football vs. whatever we spend.

Add in the aforementioned A10 TV deal on NBC/CBS vs. MAC deal on TimeWarner/Spectrum.

They could probably draw nobody to their games and STILL afford $5M more a year on their basketball budget. 

If I use $265,700 per unit, A-10 schools received around $700K more this year than a MAC school. Not $3.3M.

  A-10 MAC
2011 6 1
2012 7 3
2013 12 1
2014 10 1
2015 5 1
2016 5 1
Units 45 8
Times   $              265,700  $            265,700
Total  $        11,956,500  $        2,125,600
Divide by 14 12
Per Team  $              854,036  $            177,133
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GraffZ06
3/28/2017 9:09 PM
Ted Thompson wrote:expand_more
is it really just NCAA tournament money that allows Duquesne (Duquesne!) to pay a coach a freaking million/year? They have a high school gym they barely draw flies to. is it the lack of football? Are they supported by student fees? Do they have deep pockets endowing the inflated coach salaries?


See the actual breakdown in money I posted here last week.

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

Basically, over the last 7 years the A10 has earned ~$440M in NCAA tourney money. That's $62.85M per year. In that time the MAC has earned ~$96M in NCAA tourney money, or $13.81M per year. Assuming (not sure) the A10 and MAC both split that equally between all schools (14 in A10, 12 in MAC) then it breaks down as $4.489M/year per school in A10 to $1.151M/year per school in MAC. That's $3.3M more per year.

Add in the fact that they spend $0 on football vs. whatever we spend.

Add in the aforementioned A10 TV deal on NBC/CBS vs. MAC deal on TimeWarner/Spectrum.

They could probably draw nobody to their games and STILL afford $5M more a year on their basketball budget.

How are you coming up with these numbers? They appear to be tremendously overstated.
Also, the A-10 has football. UMass ring any bells. Duquesne is FCS, etc.
Units (and payouts) are calculated on a 6-year rolling total. Over the last 7 years the units paid out per year by conference are:

2010 (2005-2010) : A10 = 24, MAC = 7
2011 (2006-2011) : A10 = 29, MAC = 7
2012 (2007-2012) : A10 = 33, MAC = 9
2013 (2008-2013) : A10 = 42, MAC = 9
2014 (2009-2014) : A10 = 46, MAC = 9
2015 (2010-2015) : A10 = 45, MAC = 9
2016 (2011-2016) : A10 = 45, MAC = 8

See the first 7 posts in the link I provided for breakdowns of all conference and links for reference. It got bumped to Page 2.

Of note is that the $ amount I used assumed a $1.67M payout per unit, which was the amount paid in 2014 (again see reference links from above post). That amount will be less for 2010-2013 and more for 2015-present so it's an "estimate" but it will be close for comparing apples to apples.

As for football, you're absolutely correct they "have" football. So their budget isn't $0 - but in comparison to our football budget I guarantee it's significantly less meaning the availability of funds for basketball are SIGNIFICANTLY higher.
Last Edited: 3/28/2017 9:11:06 PM by GraffZ06
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Ted Thompson
3/28/2017 9:13 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
is it really just NCAA tournament money that allows Duquesne (Duquesne!) to pay a coach a freaking million/year? They have a high school gym they barely draw flies to. is it the lack of football? Are they supported by student fees? Do they have deep pockets endowing the inflated coach salaries?


See the actual breakdown in money I posted here last week.

http://www.bobcatattack.com/messageboard/topic.asp?FromPa...

Basically, over the last 7 years the A10 has earned ~$440M in NCAA tourney money. That's $62.85M per year. In that time the MAC has earned ~$96M in NCAA tourney money, or $13.81M per year. Assuming (not sure) the A10 and MAC both split that equally between all schools (14 in A10, 12 in MAC) then it breaks down as $4.489M/year per school in A10 to $1.151M/year per school in MAC. That's $3.3M more per year.

Add in the fact that they spend $0 on football vs. whatever we spend.

Add in the aforementioned A10 TV deal on NBC/CBS vs. MAC deal on TimeWarner/Spectrum.

They could probably draw nobody to their games and STILL afford $5M more a year on their basketball budget.

How are you coming up with these numbers? They appear to be tremendously overstated.
Also, the A-10 has football. UMass ring any bells. Duquesne is FCS, etc.


Units (and payouts) are calculated on a 6-year rolling total. Over the last 7 years the units paid out per year by conference are:

2010 (2005-2010) : A10 = 24, MAC = 7
2011 (2006-2011) : A10 = 29, MAC = 7
2012 (2007-2012) : A10 = 33, MAC = 9
2013 (2008-2013) : A10 = 42, MAC = 9
2014 (2009-2014) : A10 = 46, MAC = 9
2015 (2010-2015) : A10 = 45, MAC = 9
2016 (2011-2016) : A10 = 45, MAC = 8

See the first 7 posts in the link I provided for breakdowns of all conference and links for reference. It got bumped to Page 2.

Of note is that the $ amount I used assumed a $1.67M payout per unit, which was the amount paid in 2014 (again see reference links from above post). That amount will be less for 2010-2013 and more for 2015-present so it's an "estimate" but it will be close for comparing apples to apples.

As for football, you're absolutely correct they "have" football. So their budget isn't $0 - but in comparison to our football budget I guarantee it's significantly less meaning the availability of funds for basketball are SIGNIFICANTLY higher.


It is NOT $1.67M per unit. That was basically what one game was worth. But its paid out in 6 units. The unit value does go up each year. Per the Washington Post (also referenced in Forbes) article you referenced, the unit value was estimated to be $265,700 in 2017.

Basically, you get a unit for every game your conference participated in the previous 6 years.
 

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GraffZ06
3/28/2017 9:31 PM
Good catch Ted. That was worded poorly on their part (and/or I just read it wrong). So take my total #s and divide by 6.

Which makes your #s pretty close on a per team basis. So on average an A10 team got $750k a year while the MAC got $190k - so an additional $560k a year right there. That's more than some MAC coaches make total.

Again - add in the football budget differential and TV deals. Easy to see how they can afford to pay their bball coaches that much more - even a bottom-feeder like Duquesne.
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Ted Thompson
3/28/2017 9:38 PM
GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
Good catch Ted. That was worded poorly on their part (and/or I just read it wrong). So take my total #s and divide by 6.

Which makes your #s pretty close on a per team basis. So on average an A10 team got $750k a year while the MAC got $190k - so an additional $560k a year right there. That's more than some MAC coaches make total.

Again - add in the football budget differential and TV deals. Easy to see how they can afford to pay their bball coaches that much more - even a bottom-feeder like Duquesne.
I don't understand why you keep bringing up football. Again, UMass (and I would bet Duquesne) have similar football budgets. Why not factor in hockey budgets? That's not even a MAC sport.

Ohio has the same football budgets as other MAC schools but have chosen to fund their basketball coach at up to 2X other schools. It's up to the school to place the value they want on basketball. Full stop.
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Ted Thompson
3/28/2017 9:51 PM

GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
Good catch Ted. That was worded poorly on their part (and/or I just read it wrong). So take my total #s and divide by 6.

Which makes your #s pretty close on a per team basis. So on average an A10 team got $750k a year while the MAC got $190k - so an additional $560k a year right there. That's more than some MAC coaches make total.

Again - add in the football budget differential and TV deals. Easy to see how they can afford to pay their bball coaches that much more - even a bottom-feeder like Duquesne. 

As for TV deals, you'll have to show me how the A-10 has a better deal. Last data I could find showed their deal worth $5M per year (http://www.bigeastcoastbias.com/2012/10/3/3448664/new-atlantic-10-television-contract-shows-big-east-basketball-schools). Meanwhile, the MAC deal was supposed to increase from $8M to $10M this year (http://www.hustlebelt.com/2014/8/19/6045303/explaining-the-new-mac-espn-tv-deal).

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TWT
3/28/2017 11:34 PM
100% right Ted. Also The A10 earned only 11 million last year from all its units. That split is 75% to 25% so Duquesne is squarely in the 25% pool. The 2.9 million in the 25% pool is then split 14 ways about 210k is the yearly distribution. The MAC splits 75/25 too but Ohio has earned 5/9 MAC units. Ohio then earns 1.02 million from units yearly to Duquesne 210k.

https://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/Division%20I%20R...
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GraffZ06
3/28/2017 11:47 PM
Instead of trying to guess the aggregate totals here - I just went straight to the source.

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/compare/search

The above link takes you to the US Dept of Education, Office of Post-secondary Education, Equity in Athletics budgets. Using their tools you can select schools to compare. You can compare up to 4 schools at a time.

Since they've been the topic at hand I selected: OU, Akron, UD, Duquesne. Went to the Revenues & Expenses tab.

Operating Expenses - Men's Basketball
Ohio = $500,478
Duquesne = $1,045,890
Dayton = $1,586,831
Akron = $528,989

Operating Expenses - Football
Ohio = $1,122,958
Duquesne = $466,795
Dayton = $435,771
Akron = $1,409,221

Total Operating Expenses - All Men's Sports
Ohio = $2,045,269
Duquesne = $1,720,215
Dayton = $2,537,561
Akron = $2,308,153

Expenses - Men's Basketball (Not sure how they define difference between expenses and operating expenses)
Ohio = $3,101,150
Duquesne = $4,229,922
Dayton = $5,000,454
Akron = $3,088,920

Expenses - Football
Ohio = $9,037,911
Duquesne = $2,988,070
Dayton = $1,092,469
Akron = $7,473,209

Expenses - All Men's Sports
Ohio = $14,494,757
Duquesne = $8,672,172
Dayton = $8,916,845
Akron = $12,629,663

Revenue - Men's Basketball
Ohio = $2,687,743
Duquesne = $4,229,922
Dayton = $13,476,297
Akron = $3,088,920

Revenue - Football
Ohio = $9,616,278
Duquesne = $2,988,070
Dayton = $219,332
Akron = $7,473,209

Revenue - All Men's Sports
Ohio = $14,534,108
Duquesne = $8,672,172
Dayton = $15,559,273
Akron = $12,629,663
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TWT
3/28/2017 11:53 PM
Duquense can pay what it wants because its a private school. That's the real difference and why the Big East is able to be successful. Ohio can draw up a budget to pay for a much larger salary but doesn't because its not perceived to support the university mission. These urban schools are seeing sports as a way to stimulate economic development, quasi minor leagues and will push pricing to the major league threshold if popular. Ohio I think wants to hold down prices to stay family accessible and spend just enough to reach our highest competitive level.
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Ted Thompson
3/29/2017 8:10 AM
GraffZ06 wrote:expand_more
Instead of trying to guess the aggregate totals here - I just went straight to the source.

https://ope.ed.gov/athletics/#/compare/search

The above link takes you to the US Dept of Education, Office of Post-secondary Education, Equity in Athletics budgets. Using their tools you can select schools to compare. You can compare up to 4 schools at a time.

Since they've been the topic at hand I selected: OU, Akron, UD, Duquesne. Went to the Revenues & Expenses tab.

Operating Expenses - Men's Basketball
Ohio = $500,478
Duquesne = $1,045,890
Dayton = $1,586,831
Akron = $528,989

Operating Expenses - Football
Ohio = $1,122,958
Duquesne = $466,795
Dayton = $435,771
Akron = $1,409,221

Total Operating Expenses - All Men's Sports
Ohio = $2,045,269
Duquesne = $1,720,215
Dayton = $2,537,561
Akron = $2,308,153

Expenses - Men's Basketball (Not sure how they define difference between expenses and operating expenses)
Ohio = $3,101,150
Duquesne = $4,229,922
Dayton = $5,000,454
Akron = $3,088,920

Expenses - Football
Ohio = $9,037,911
Duquesne = $2,988,070
Dayton = $1,092,469
Akron = $7,473,209

Expenses - All Men's Sports
Ohio = $14,494,757
Duquesne = $8,672,172
Dayton = $8,916,845
Akron = $12,629,663

Revenue - Men's Basketball
Ohio = $2,687,743
Duquesne = $4,229,922
Dayton = $13,476,297
Akron = $3,088,920

Revenue - Football
Ohio = $9,616,278
Duquesne = $2,988,070
Dayton = $219,332
Akron = $7,473,209

Revenue - All Men's Sports
Ohio = $14,534,108
Duquesne = $8,672,172
Dayton = $15,559,273
Akron = $12,629,663
I wouldn't use that tool for anything. There are no accounting standards. It would be great if there were as this could then be a great apples-to-apples comparison tool.
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Bobcatfanatic
3/29/2017 9:03 AM
Duquesne has a football team they play in the NEC
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OUVan
3/29/2017 9:05 AM
MedinaCat wrote:expand_more
It won't be easy at Duquesne. Tough conference. School is sequestered in downtown and not within walking distance of where the kids want to be. Not a great campus by any stretch of the imagination. Attendance is just a little better than Eastern Michigan.
Same thing could have been written about Xavier
Or Akron. They had two coaches in the 15 years between Bob Huggins and Dambrot.

Dan Hipsher 112-137
Coleman Crawford 71-91

The right coach can win anywhere.
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FlashGary
3/29/2017 11:54 AM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
The MAC sadly and unfairly being a one-team entry to the Big Dance is a hard pill to swallow year and year after year after year, PARTICULARLY when your team ALWAYS has more than 20 wins and USUALLY plays in the MAC title game.

But I put this blame on Dambrot too. I know MAC schools won't get a home and home with power 5 schools, but then you have to schedule at least 3 big boy non-conference aways games to get the committee's attention for an at large bid. Fact is, Dambrot didn't do this at all in his 13 years at Akron. And yes...I realize they did play Gonzaga this year, but there wasn't enough of it that when it came to his schedule making.

Good point, FearLeon. But the MAC has gotten shafted forever in this regard and many more qualified teams other than Akron got burned in the process.
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