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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: GROCE TO AKRON
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100%Cat
4/6/2017 10:41 AM
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
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ShoreCat
4/6/2017 10:42 AM
The story has been told multiple times on this board about how Akron wasted resources with InfoCision stadium instead of upgrading the JAR. Then the city wanted to pass a tax increase for a new arena to share with UA and that got shot down (really, really short version). Adding an arena near Canal Park would have been great for the city and university, but you can only do so much with limited funds.

The JAR is a glorified, yet awful high school gym. For a small venue, you aren't close to the action in the upper level. I'm there every year when OU plays UA and while I try to see something positive in the JAR, there is nothing there.

And as far as a reaction to a specific coach, I've never had any burning desire one way or the other to boo or cheer a coach upon his return. Don't most people boo or cheer based on the team, not the coach? When he gets introduced next year, there will be some boos, some polite applause, and some people going "who is that?" Beating the team he coaches is the only thing that matters to me.
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Jeff McKinney
4/6/2017 10:44 AM
I bet most Ozoners don't even know who he is.
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stout76
4/6/2017 10:56 AM
Well let's hope the 'Zone bones up quickly and makes JG's return to Athens an eventful one. I really hope 10k+ shows up rocking for that first game in Athens and reminds Groce what he left behind. No matter, the Zips will be tough.
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OhioStunter
4/6/2017 11:25 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
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OU_Country
4/6/2017 11:34 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
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OhioStunter
4/6/2017 11:52 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
Sure, but Groce had Tillman, Freeman and Orr on his roster in year one and Saul had Campbell, Ndour, Bean and Treg Setty, so they both had some pretty good players to work with.
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Andrew Ruck
4/6/2017 12:04 PM
Mixed bag of emotions. A little tough to see a former coach who I respect and fully recognize how much he did for our program go to battle with a school that I really enjoy hating. But I also love anything that brings a little spice and interest to our conference, and I'd rather programs in the MAC get better, not worse. I want to win the conference, but want to win it because we are good, not because everyone else sucks.

One perspective - If he does end up super succussful, there is a very good chance he would leave for a bigger job. Rumor has it he can be a bit of a job hopper.
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OU_Country
4/6/2017 12:17 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
Sure, but Groce had Tillman, Freeman and Orr on his roster in year one and Saul had Campbell, Ndour, Bean and Treg Setty, so they both had some pretty good players to work with.
But both had limited rosters in my opinion. Saul had no useful PG, as it turned out. JG had a really short bench and had to play Tommy as a 4 in a couple games. Plus year one isn't usually very good for most transitions. It just seems more accurate to look at years following that when looking at trends.
Last Edited: 4/6/2017 12:19:05 PM by OU_Country
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Mark Lembright '85
4/6/2017 12:23 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
Sure, but Groce had Tillman, Freeman and Orr on his roster in year one and Saul had Campbell, Ndour, Bean and Treg Setty, so they both had some pretty good players to work with.
But both had limited rosters in my opinion. Saul had no useful PG, as it turned out. JG had a really short bench and had to play Tommy as a 4 in a couple games. Plus year one isn't usually very good for most transitions. It just seems more accurate to look at years following that when looking at trends.
Plus, for some of the players, wasn't Saul their third coach at Ohio? That's a lot of turnover in coaching in a short period of time and I'm sure handicapped Saul.
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allen
4/6/2017 1:06 PM
Saul is our coach and we have to roll with him. The moral victories need to stop, Groce did a better job in his tenure. Saul's tenure is still young and he has done pretty good. We now know that it is game on, we know Groce can recruit and win in March. Saul will have to step up. I hope that Groce has a lot of MAC runner up's. Go Cat's
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OakStreet
4/6/2017 2:03 PM
I don't agree that Groce did a better job during his tenure. It's too early to tell.

Through 3 seasons at OU, Groce went 56-48 (.538) and 23-25 (.479) in league play, with a MAC tournament title and one trip to the NCAA tournament.

Through 3 seasons at OU, Phillips has gone 53-43 (.552) and 27-27 (.500) in league play. I thought 11-7 and second place in the MAC was pretty impressive this year. What record and finish would you have expected with the reigning MAC Player of the Year going down after three minutes in the fourth conference game?
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allen
4/6/2017 2:22 PM
OakStreet wrote:expand_more
I don't agree that Groce did a better job during his tenure. It's too early to tell.

Through 3 seasons at OU, Groce went 56-48 (.538) and 23-25 (.479) in league play, with a MAC tournament title and one trip to the NCAA tournament.

Through 3 seasons at OU, Phillips has gone 53-43 (.552) and 27-27 (.500) in league play. I thought 11-7 and second place in the MAC was pretty impressive this year. What record and finish would you have expected with the reigning MAC Player of the Year going down after three minutes in the fourth conference game?
I am not here to talk down Saul, he did a great job this year. I am just saying let's not do the crazy comparisons. Saul is our coach, lets get behind him. I am sure he wants more than a second seed.
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100%Cat
4/6/2017 2:42 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
I'm comparing nothing and nobody. I'm just pointing out that there's a 9 year sample of Groce failing to consistently win in conference games that nobody seems to care about. How dramatically differently so many people here would view Groce's tenure if not for a tourney run (if you call 2 games a "run") and one neutral court upset.
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100%Cat
4/6/2017 2:44 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
Sure, but Groce had Tillman, Freeman and Orr on his roster in year one and Saul had Campbell, Ndour, Bean and Treg Setty, so they both had some pretty good players to work with.
Sorry, but I don't think Bean was a pretty good player to work with.
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allen
4/6/2017 2:49 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
I'm comparing nothing and nobody. I'm just pointing out that there's a 9 year sample of Groce failing to consistently win in conference games that nobody seems to care about. How dramatically differently so many people here would view Groce's tenure if not for a tourney run (if you call 2 games a "run") and one neutral court upset.

You are demeaning success to uplift a second seed. Groce won 3 tourney games, Saul is on his way. Let's not create moral victories that don't matter. Groce's teams have valuable memories (tournament wise), Saul's teams will have those same valuable memories as well. Let's go Cats
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GoCats105
4/6/2017 2:58 PM
stout76 wrote:expand_more
Well let's hope the 'Zone bones up quickly and makes JG's return to Athens an eventful one. I really hope 10k+ shows up rocking for that first game in Athens and reminds Groce what he left behind. No matter, the Zips will be tough.
There better be a nice big article in The Post about it leading up to the game. That'll get the word out.
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allen
4/6/2017 3:05 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
Well let's hope the 'Zone bones up quickly and makes JG's return to Athens an eventful one. I really hope 10k+ shows up rocking for that first game in Athens and reminds Groce what he left behind. No matter, the Zips will be tough.
There better be a nice big article in The Post about it leading up to the game. That'll get the word out.
+1
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OhioStunter
4/6/2017 6:09 PM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Sure, but Groce had Tillman, Freeman and Orr on his roster in year one and Saul had Campbell, Ndour, Bean and Treg Setty, so they both had some pretty good players to work with.
[/QUOTE][QUOTE=100%Cat]


Sorry, but I don't think Bean was a pretty good player to work with.
I don't want this to turn into a Bean discussion, but Bean was an All-MAC Honorable Mention Saul's first year, joining a nice list of other Bobcats that also received that honor including Jamerson, Snoopy, Leon, Tillman, DJ. Plus, Saul had an eventual NBA player in N'Dour and future POY Campbell on that roster. The argument that the rosters were crappy for both Groce and Saul in their first years is something I'm not buying.
Last Edited: 4/6/2017 6:11:43 PM by OhioStunter
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Mark Lembright '85
4/6/2017 7:30 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
I'm comparing nothing and nobody. I'm just pointing out that there's a 9 year sample of Groce failing to consistently win in conference games that nobody seems to care about. How dramatically differently so many people here would view Groce's tenure if not for a tourney run (if you call 2 games a "run") and one neutral court upset.
Hey, Isn't there a BA poster with literally 8,000 posts clamoring for a certain other coach in another sport to win just one MACC? Hee hee, couldn't help it! Sorry MS, just playin'!
Last Edited: 4/6/2017 7:32:14 PM by Mark Lembright '85
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100%Cat
4/6/2017 7:30 PM
allen wrote:expand_more
Look, I think he'll succeed at Akron. I concede he had a great tourney run here. But how can you ignore the large sample size of his conference records over the course of his career?

Between Ohio and Illinois: 71-83

In four years at Ohio, one season with even double-digit conference wins. With what Akron has done in the league the last several years, how long would that be tolerated if it continues? 9 years is a pretty good sample size. In 9 years, a conference record better than .500 just twice. I'm well aware that, in the MAC, all that matters is Cleveland. However, how consistently successful do you expect a team to be if their conference record and seeding put them on a more difficult path to the NCAA tourney every year? Kent St this year broke a 5 year streak of the winner of the MAC tourney being a top 4 seed. Food for thought.
MAC records of last 5 Ohio head coaches (with Ohio):
1. .735 (25-9) - J. Christian
2. .585 (123-87) - L. Hunter
3. .537 (66-57) - T. O'Shea
4. .531 (34-30) - J. Groce
5. .500 (27-27) - S. Phillips

Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.
Let's take this a step further since everyone is hell bent on this comparison. Let's eliminate the first years for Groce and Saul because both were dealt a crappy hand with regard to the roster situation upon arrival.

Groce in years 2 to 4: 27-21
Saul, years 2 and 3: 22-14
I'm comparing nothing and nobody. I'm just pointing out that there's a 9 year sample of Groce failing to consistently win in conference games that nobody seems to care about. How dramatically differently so many people here would view Groce's tenure if not for a tourney run (if you call 2 games a "run") and one neutral court upset.

You are demeaning success to uplift a second seed. Groce won 3 tourney games, Saul is on his way. Let's not create moral victories that don't matter. Groce's teams have valuable memories (tournament wise), Saul's teams will have those same valuable memories as well. Let's go Cats
I understand what you mean but I think it's unfair to Saul to compare him to Roy Williams. He may get there someday but you just have to be patient.




Oh, you weren't comparing them? That's weird, I wasn't comparing Saul to Groce, either.
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Obc2
4/7/2017 4:15 PM
Those Bobcat Black seats are going to be in high demand for Groce's return to the Convo.
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The Optimist
4/8/2017 10:34 AM
OhioStunter wrote:expand_more
Saul will have to win 12 conference games next season to move past Groce in conference win pct.

I bet we win at least 12 in conference this year.
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akroncat
4/8/2017 11:44 AM
Interesting article in the Akron Beacon today. It is referenced on the front page of Bobcatattack. Apparently others of some concern with Groce swinging for the fences and bringing in some bad actors. He is definitely going to have to do this in order to be competitive quickly at Akron. There roster is in bad shape.
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Alan Swank
4/8/2017 12:37 PM
akroncat wrote:expand_more
Interesting article in the Akron Beacon today. It is referenced on the front page of Bobcatattack. Apparently others of some concern with Groce swinging for the fences and bringing in some bad actors. He is definitely going to have to do this in order to be competitive quickly at Akron. There roster is in bad shape.
Where did you read this - "Apparently others of some concern with Groce swinging for the fences and bringing in some bad actors. - I sure didn't see that in the article.
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