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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: 2017-18 thoughts
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bobcatsquared
10/3/2017 11:54 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Ohio should be shooting to win the MAC every year, yes. But the conference as a whole is definitely getting better. To state the program is in trouble if they're fighting for a top four seed is either insulting to the rest of the conference, or naive - I'm not sure which in your case.
To say the MAC "is definitely getting better" is either insulting to where MAC basketball used to be or naive - I'm not sure which in your case.
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OU_Country
10/3/2017 12:07 PM
bobcatsquared wrote:expand_more
Ohio should be shooting to win the MAC every year, yes. But the conference as a whole is definitely getting better. To state the program is in trouble if they're fighting for a top four seed is either insulting to the rest of the conference, or naive - I'm not sure which in your case.
To say the MAC "is definitely getting better" is either insulting to where MAC basketball used to be or naive - I'm not sure which in your case.
It's getting better as a whole than it was 5-6 years ago. All the metrics point to that improvement. Is it as good as it was, say, in the mid to late 90's? I'd say probably not.
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bshot44
10/3/2017 1:11 PM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
"Teams with freshman point guards don't find a lot of success"
-Our last two teams starting freshman point guards made the NCAA Tournament.

Yeah ... but the rest of those rosters had some pretty damn good talent.
This roster has some pretty damn good talent. Anyone can talk about how talented our rosters were AFTER we make the NCAA Tournament. Interestingly enough, prior to those tournament seasons both of those teams had a lot more roster uncertainty than we're facing this year.

2003-2004: 10-20 (7-11 in MAC)
October 2004: We were coming off a disastrous 10-win season. We graduated our two leading scorers Jaivon Harris (15 ppg) and Thomas Stephens (10 ppg) as well as a pair of big-men in Delvar Barrett and Marin Bota. We had four rising-Seniors: James Bridgewater, Diamond Gladney, Terren Harbut and Clay McGowen. Would they qualify as "co-stars" or "leading actors" using your metrics? If anyone was seen as the "leading actor" it was probably Sonny Troutman who was a rising-junior. Fortunately, both Jeremy Fears and Leon Williams ended up being great recruits as true freshman. That team made a point to have growing pains every game so they could mount absurd comebacks.
2004-2005: NCAA Tournament
2008-2009: 15-17 (7-9 in MAC)
October 2009: We were coming off a losing record in John Groce's first year and we graduated Jerome Tillman who most agreed was our best player. KVK was our only rising-Senior. No one knew if Armon Bassett would even make it on the court. DeVaughn Washington and Tommy Freeman were rising juniors widely viewed as "role-players." DJ Cooper was an unknown. This team had even more growing pains than the 04-05 team. Steven Coleman quit 10 games in to become a rapper. "The Armon Bassett Experience."
2009-2010: NCAA Tournament
Our roster this year has SIGNIFICANTLY more experience returning than either the 04-05 or 09-10 tournament teams had. Neither of those teams returned any players who averaged more than 10ppg the year prior. Both Fears and Cooper played with fellow newcomers next to them in the backcourt as scoring guards (Mychael Green, Armon Bassett) along with a big-man who averaged over 10ppg (DeVaughn Washington, Leon Williams)
Some really good stuff here...fun remembering the low expectations of those teams and the program at those times and seeing Ohio exceed them.

But...this year is hard to compare based on context. Comparing those years and this team would be done in a vaccuum.

2017-18 is coming off back-to-back MAC semi losses...4th year of the head coach.

There are expectations with the program now ...even with Simmons departure.

I'm just going off data that is there right now. Maybe the freshmen will blossom into the next Cooper or Leon? That would be great.

That 09-10 team was picked last in MAC East

http://getsomemaction.com/news/2009/10/28/MBB_130901.aspx...

The 04-05 wasn't a top three MAC East pick

http://getsomemaction.com/news/2004/10/21/MBB_123727.aspx...

The 17-18 team, as you said, should be picked no lower than 3rd in East.

I'm just curious who emerges on this roster as "the guy(s)" like Cooper, Leon, etc did on those other teams.

To me, this might be most telling year of Saul era ... a bit of the unknown ... has he built this program to sustain after losses like Campbell and Simmons (as unexpected as that was)

I'm, for one, excited to see.

But, to me, on paper RIGHT NOW I'm skeptical of where it comes from. Only time will tell
Last Edited: 10/4/2017 11:57:02 AM by bshot44
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OU_Country
10/3/2017 4:31 PM
bshot44 wrote:expand_more
"Teams with freshman point guards don't find a lot of success"
-Our last two teams starting freshman point guards made the NCAA Tournament.

Yeah ... but the rest of those rosters had some pretty damn good talent.
This roster has some pretty damn good talent. Anyone can talk about how talented our rosters were AFTER we make the NCAA Tournament. Interestingly enough, prior to those tournament seasons both of those teams had a lot more roster uncertainty than we're facing this year.

2003-2004: 10-20 (7-11 in MAC)
October 2004: We were coming off a disastrous 10-win season. We graduated our two leading scorers Jaivon Harris (15 ppg) and Thomas Stephens (10 ppg) as well as a pair of big-men in Delvar Barrett and Marin Bota. We had four rising-Seniors: James Bridgewater, Diamond Gladney, Terren Harbut and Clay McGowen. Would they qualify as "co-stars" or "leading actors" using your metrics? If anyone was seen as the "leading actor" it was probably Sonny Troutman who was a rising-junior. Fortunately, both Jeremy Fears and Leon Williams ended up being great recruits as true freshman. That team made a point to have growing pains every game so they could mount absurd comebacks.
2004-2005: NCAA Tournament
2008-2009: 15-17 (7-9 in MAC)
October 2009: We were coming off a losing record in John Groce's first year and we graduated Jerome Tillman who most agreed was our best player. KVK was our only rising-Senior. No one knew if Armon Bassett would even make it on the court. DeVaughn Washington and Tommy Freeman were rising juniors widely viewed as "role-players." DJ Cooper was an unknown. This team had even more growing pains than the 04-05 team. Steven Coleman quit 10 games in to become a rapper. "The Armon Bassett Experience."
2009-2010: NCAA Tournament
Our roster this year has SIGNIFICANTLY more experience returning than either the 04-05 or 09-10 tournament teams had. Neither of those teams returned any players who averaged more than 10ppg the year prior. Both Fears and Cooper played with fellow newcomers next to them in the backcourt as scoring guards (Mychael Green, Armon Bassett) along with a big-man who averaged over 10ppg (DeVaughn Washington, Leon Williams)
Some really good stuff here...fun remembering the low expectations of those teams and the program at those times and seeing Ohio exceed them.

But...this year is hard to compare based on context. Comparing those years and this team would be done in a vaccuum.

2017-18 is coming off back-to-back MAC semi losses...4th year of the head coach.

There are expectations with the program now ...even with Simmons departure.

I'm just going off data that is there right now. Maybe the freshmen will blossom into the next Cooper or Leon? That would be great.

That 09-10 team was picked last in MAC East

http://getsomemaction.com/news/2009/10/28/MBB_130901.aspx...

The 04-05 wasn't a top three MAC East pick

http://getsomemaction.com/news/2004/10/21/MBB_123727.aspx...

The 17-18 team, as you said, should be picked no lower than 3rd in East.

I'm just curious who emerges on this roster as "the guy(s)" like Cooper, Leon, etc did on those other teams.

To me, this might be most telling year of Saul era ... a bit of the unknown ... has he built this program to sustain after losses like Campbell and Simmons (as unexpected as that was)

I'm, for one, excited to see.

But,to me, on paper RIGHT NOW I'm skeptical of where it comes from. Only time will tell
Great point on the idea that this might be the most telling year of the Saul era (thus far). Now that the 4th year is here, it's all his recruits, his staff's methods, etc. Prior to Simmons departure, and then BVP's injury, I saw this as a year that set up to be pretty special. It still can be, but a lot of guys will have to take steps forward, and freshmen will have to emerge - such as the way Carter did after Tony's injury. And for me, that's part of the fun of college hoops - watching what a player evolves into from his first to his last year.
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Taiwan BC
10/3/2017 10:06 PM
I haven't studied Buffalo in particular but I do know they lost two of their top players and dismissed another player that was expected to get more minutes this year. That said, I would have to think that looking at our roster, we stack up well vs the MAC... At almost every position, we have a player with above average skills. SG Dartis, SF Block, PF Carter, C Taylor, 6th man Laster... The only position I have questions about is point and, are we sure of what we have? Will Saul even ask them to do as much as Simmons did? Bring the ball up, limit turnovers when starting the offense and play good D (Wish list, shoot well from the outside to enhance floor spacing). With what we have returning, I believe Saul can figure out the best way to put it together.
I am excited to see what we've got!

Go Bobcats!
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OUVan
10/4/2017 3:10 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Several MAC followers think Western could be at the top when all is said and done.

Gollon could be the breakout player this year. Mickle has been the surprise guy in summer and early Fall. Expect a solid contribution from him.
Western returns a guy that's a POY candidate. Beyond Thomas Wilder, Jeff what are people saying about Western?
Western only lost one guy from a team that won 9 in a row to end the year before losing to Ball State in the tournament. They also have a favorable schedule with their East doubles against Miami and Akron. I'd put them as favorites with going into the year.
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The Optimist
10/5/2017 5:28 AM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
Several MAC followers think Western could be at the top when all is said and done.

Gollon could be the breakout player this year. Mickle has been the surprise guy in summer and early Fall. Expect a solid contribution from him.
Western returns a guy that's a POY candidate. Beyond Thomas Wilder, Jeff what are people saying about Western?
Western only lost one guy from a team that won 9 in a row to end the year before losing to Ball State in the tournament. They also have a favorable schedule with their East doubles against Miami and Akron. I'd put them as favorites with going into the year.
I think Western will win the West, but I don't put enough stock in that win streak to make them favorites to win the tournament.

They won 9 straight to end the regular season playing 7 games against the MAC West and 2 games against Miami. 6/9 of those games were also played at home.

Prior to that, they opened the season 2-4 against the MAC East. One of those wins was a 5-point home win against Ohio just after we had lost Tony Campbell. We beat them by 31 in the Convo earlier in the year.

The MAC East has won 12 of the last 13 MAC Tournament titles. Western is the only team from the MAC West to win it during that span (they also won it in 04) but even though the MAC East is down I would bet Ohio, Buffalo or Kent is dancing this March rather than Western. If Ohio, Buffalo and Kent beat each other up in the East then Western should have a great shot to secure that automatic NIT bid.
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Hawaiian Bobcat
10/5/2017 11:21 AM
Jeff McKinney wrote:expand_more
Vander Plas time line was 12 weeks from the injury.
What injury?
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OU_Country
10/5/2017 11:35 AM
Hawaiian Bobcat wrote:expand_more
Vander Plas time line was 12 weeks from the injury.
What injury?
Broken foot or something like that. Probably able to play Dec/Jan.
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Bobcat1998
10/5/2017 12:00 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
Vander Plas time line was 12 weeks from the injury.
What injury?
Broken foot or something like that. Probably able to play Dec/Jan.
Depending on our start...and the contributions of guys like Gareri, Dozier and Mickle I say we should redshirt Vander Plas. I don't know if he's a transformative player but if he burns this year on a hobbled foot and isn't 100 percent we should definitely redshirt him.
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OUVan
10/5/2017 2:28 PM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
Vander Plas time line was 12 weeks from the injury.
What injury?
Broken foot or something like that. Probably able to play Dec/Jan.
Depending on our start...and the contributions of guys like Gareri, Dozier and Mickle I say we should redshirt Vander Plas. I don't know if he's a transformative player but if he burns this year on a hobbled foot and isn't 100 percent we should definitely redshirt him.
I thought Gareri was dealing with injuries himself.
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Andrew Ruck
10/5/2017 3:04 PM
We'll be in a lot of close games. Hopefully we get the bounces in our favor and pull out more than we let get away. It will be a fun season. It always is.
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bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
10/5/2017 10:01 PM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
Vander Plas time line was 12 weeks from the injury.
What injury?
Broken foot or something like that. Probably able to play Dec/Jan.
Depending on our start...and the contributions of guys like Gareri, Dozier and Mickle I say we should redshirt Vander Plas. I don't know if he's a transformative player but if he burns this year on a hobbled foot and isn't 100 percent we should definitely redshirt him.
I don't want to ever redshirt a player anymore. I'd rather have BVP for 15 games at the end of this year instead of having him play his Senior year for Louisville or Michigan.
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OhioCatFan
10/8/2017 10:46 PM
bigtillyoopsupsideurhead wrote:expand_more
I don't want to ever redshirt a player anymore. I'd rather have BVP for 15 games at the end of this year instead of having him play his Senior year for Louisville or Michigan.
I understand the sentiment, but I don't think we are going to have to worry about Louisville in the near future. ;-)
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GoCats105
10/9/2017 8:17 AM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
Vander Plas time line was 12 weeks from the injury.
What injury?
Broken foot or something like that. Probably able to play Dec/Jan.
Depending on our start...and the contributions of guys like Gareri, Dozier and Mickle I say we should redshirt Vander Plas. I don't know if he's a transformative player but if he burns this year on a hobbled foot and isn't 100 percent we should definitely redshirt him.
We're already keeping one scholarship in our pocket this year. I don't think we can afford to redshirt a guy. Let the kid play. Even if it's only a few minutes a night, at least he gets the game experience.
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BobcatSports
10/9/2017 10:03 PM
What's the status of Gollon? Seems to be an afterthought in terms of being able to contribute at this juncture.
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MonroeClassmate
10/9/2017 10:21 PM
Got to see Doug Taylor while at Homecoming. He was out walking his young hound.

He appears to have slimmed down quite a bit--and chiseled!
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Jeff McKinney
10/10/2017 12:26 AM
BobcatSports wrote:expand_more
What's the status of Gollon? Seems to be an afterthought in terms of being able to contribute at this juncture.
He looks like a different guy. Looks stronger and more athletic. I think he'll be a significant contributor this year.
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The Optimist
10/11/2017 9:50 AM
I think we will see a decent amount of both Kirk and Gollon at point.

http://www.thepostathens.com/article/2017/10/teyvion-kirk...

Another year in the system for Gollon is the perfect counterpart to Kirk's talent which sounds like it is still raw. Is Butler looking like he will play some PG or will he be more off-the-ball?
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OU_Country
10/11/2017 10:01 AM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
I think we will see a decent amount of both Kirk and Gollon at point.

http://www.thepostathens.com/article/2017/10/teyvion-kirk...

Another year in the system for Gollon is the perfect counterpart to Kirk's talent which sounds like it is still raw. Is Butler looking like he will play some PG or will he be more off-the-ball?
I know one thing - having 3,4,5 guards with talent, and some different skills like they appear to have is a good problem to have. Having the lock down defender like Kirk wants to be (sounds like) will be would be a great addition next to Dartis and Laster.
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Bobcat1998
10/11/2017 10:36 AM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I think we will see a decent amount of both Kirk and Gollon at point.

http://www.thepostathens.com/article/2017/10/teyvion-kirk...

Another year in the system for Gollon is the perfect counterpart to Kirk's talent which sounds like it is still raw. Is Butler looking like he will play some PG or will he be more off-the-ball?
I know one thing - having 3,4,5 guards with talent, and some different skills like they appear to have is a good problem to have. Having the lock down defender like Kirk wants to be (sounds like) will be would be a great addition next to Dartis and Laster.
I have a great feeling about Kirk and Butler even this year. I just think that with established wing guys like Block, Dartis and Laster they will be able to come in and simply play hard and use their energy to spark the team. I think Taylor, Mickle and Carter will be inside presences enough to open up the outside and the driving lanes. I really hope people sleep on us because we will make them pay in March!
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Deciduous Forest Cat
10/11/2017 11:27 AM
The Optimist wrote:expand_more
I think we will see a decent amount of both Kirk and Gollon at point.

http://www.thepostathens.com/article/2017/10/teyvion-kirk...

Another year in the system for Gollon is the perfect counterpart to Kirk's talent which sounds like it is still raw. Is Butler looking like he will play some PG or will he be more off-the-ball?
"Ever since decommitting from Drake after a coaching change, coach Saul Phillips said Kirk has been spilling his guts all over the floor of The Convo. Sometimes, the spills can prove to be messy."

---sound of fingernails on a chalkboard---

I'm sorry, but when was Coach Philips committed to Drake?
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Ohio69
10/13/2017 9:06 AM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
I have a great feeling about Kirk and Butler even this year. I just think that with established wing guys like Block, Dartis and Laster they will be able to come in and simply play hard and use their energy to spark the team. I think Taylor, Mickle and Carter will be inside presences enough to open up the outside and the driving lanes. I really hope people sleep on us because we will make them pay in March!
This could be a real possibility.

We may lose A LOT of games early, but late, we could rolling if Butler and Kirk show some all-MAC freshman team talent.
Last Edited: 10/13/2017 9:07:14 AM by Ohio69
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