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Topic: Official Exhibition Game Thread: Capital
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OUVan
11/6/2017 9:37 AM
Bobcat1998 wrote:expand_more
I really like what Block brings as a starter. He seems unflappable. Good for Kirk to ease into game off the bench.
I agree. He does all the little things that don't make the box score but are extremely important to the team.
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oldkatz
11/6/2017 11:48 AM
With his new haircut, Jason Carter looks a lot like Chris Mullins with a bit of Havlicek thrown in.
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Andrew Ruck
11/6/2017 1:42 PM
Disclaimer...all this is way too early and I acknowledge I am not in the know or a qualified college basketball coach.

I agree Kirk should be thrown into the starting role. I'd prefer to just be explicit that the spot is up for grabs and an area of opportunity, give Kirk a shot and have Golon & Butler competing for minutes behind him. I do not like the idea of Block not starting though, that would be ludicrous in my mind. I'd put Laster back in the 6th man slot.

I am guessing with foul trouble, both Taylor & Mickle can be essentially regulars, don't really care which one starts, whoever earns it week to week or play the match-up you're comfortable with. They'll both be in when Carter has to sit for either rest or fouls.

I am pretty comfortable with the bigs trio of Carter, Taylor & Mickle. And the trio of off-guards/small-forwards of Dartis/Block/Laster. Man, imagine this team if we had a veteran proven POTY candidate at PG...Oh wait. Sigh. I am hoping Kirk or someone steps up and produces at PG. That is the big X factor.

Very interesting that as a guard, Kirk attempted 11 shots and 0 were from 3 point.
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Bobcat1998
11/7/2017 9:47 AM
I am really comfortable with a rotation of Block, Dartis, Doug, Carter and Laster as starters with Kirk, Butler, Gollon and Mickle off the bench. Then hopefully one of either Gareri and Vander Plas (or both) can crack that lineup too.
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OUVan
11/7/2017 11:21 AM
Andrew Ruck wrote:expand_more
Very interesting that as a guard, Kirk attempted 11 shots and 0 were from 3 point.
So for those that were there, how many spin moves did Kirk have? His highlight reels were replete with spin moves.
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GoCats105
11/7/2017 11:31 AM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
I don't know about anyone else, maybe I'm alone in this belief, but I feel like having Dartis play the PG role diminishes his impact on the offensive end. He's a great catch and shoot guy from deep. It's tough to do that when you're the guy expected to run the offense, or at least it seems that way. I'd much rather see him play the SG spot, start Kirk, and have Mike come off the bench. To my eyes, the offense looks "clunky" with no true PG on the floor, especially when you're diminishing your best shooting threat by having him trigger the offense.
But in Saul's offense the PG only really is playing PG bringing it up the court. After we get into the half-court set the positions aren't nearly has important. The offense is designed on quick ball movement with good passers all over the floor. It worked that way two years ago but I thought Jaaron got too dribble happy last year. I don't see Dartis trying to dribble the air out of the ball this year so the offense will be more like the true Saul-ball. I only saw the highlights posted here and some of the comments so obviously not going with a full picture but if Mickle is a good passer out of the post Dartis might have a huge year.
Really if you think about it, the team is almost designed to have five players who have the skill set of a small forward. No true point, no true center. Just five guys who can all dribble, pass, shoot and defend.
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Alan Swank
11/7/2017 12:37 PM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
Very interesting that as a guard, Kirk attempted 11 shots and 0 were from 3 point.
So for those that were there, how many spin moves did Kirk have? His highlight reels were replete with spin moves.
Don't recall that being an outstanding trait on Saturday. That said, he was the only point guard I saw on the floor on Saturday but again, it was only one game.
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OU_Country
11/7/2017 2:49 PM
GoCats105 wrote:expand_more
I don't know about anyone else, maybe I'm alone in this belief, but I feel like having Dartis play the PG role diminishes his impact on the offensive end. He's a great catch and shoot guy from deep. It's tough to do that when you're the guy expected to run the offense, or at least it seems that way. I'd much rather see him play the SG spot, start Kirk, and have Mike come off the bench. To my eyes, the offense looks "clunky" with no true PG on the floor, especially when you're diminishing your best shooting threat by having him trigger the offense.
But in Saul's offense the PG only really is playing PG bringing it up the court. After we get into the half-court set the positions aren't nearly has important. The offense is designed on quick ball movement with good passers all over the floor. It worked that way two years ago but I thought Jaaron got too dribble happy last year. I don't see Dartis trying to dribble the air out of the ball this year so the offense will be more like the true Saul-ball. I only saw the highlights posted here and some of the comments so obviously not going with a full picture but if Mickle is a good passer out of the post Dartis might have a huge year.
Really if you think about it, the team is almost designed to have five players who have the skill set of a small forward. No true point, no true center. Just five guys who can all dribble, pass, shoot and defend.
That's a good point. While true, I still think every team has to have 1 or 2 guys who are, as Saul calls it, the "Alpha Dog".
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100%Cat
11/7/2017 3:49 PM
OU_Country wrote:expand_more
I don't know about anyone else, maybe I'm alone in this belief, but I feel like having Dartis play the PG role diminishes his impact on the offensive end. He's a great catch and shoot guy from deep. It's tough to do that when you're the guy expected to run the offense, or at least it seems that way. I'd much rather see him play the SG spot, start Kirk, and have Mike come off the bench. To my eyes, the offense looks "clunky" with no true PG on the floor, especially when you're diminishing your best shooting threat by having him trigger the offense.
But in Saul's offense the PG only really is playing PG bringing it up the court. After we get into the half-court set the positions aren't nearly has important. The offense is designed on quick ball movement with good passers all over the floor. It worked that way two years ago but I thought Jaaron got too dribble happy last year. I don't see Dartis trying to dribble the air out of the ball this year so the offense will be more like the true Saul-ball. I only saw the highlights posted here and some of the comments so obviously not going with a full picture but if Mickle is a good passer out of the post Dartis might have a huge year.
Really if you think about it, the team is almost designed to have five players who have the skill set of a small forward. No true point, no true center. Just five guys who can all dribble, pass, shoot and defend.
That's a good point. While true, I still think every team has to have 1 or 2 guys who are, as Saul calls it, the "Alpha Dog".
I agree. I feel like in late shot clock or end of half/game situations, we know who has the ball and is going to make something happen. It's not necessarily knowing who is going to take a shot in that situation, but who is going to make that shot opportunity happen. With PG by committee, I'm not sure we know that.
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bn9
11/7/2017 4:26 PM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
I don't know about anyone else, maybe I'm alone in this belief, but I feel like having Dartis play the PG role diminishes his impact on the offensive end. He's a great catch and shoot guy from deep. It's tough to do that when you're the guy expected to run the offense, or at least it seems that way. I'd much rather see him play the SG spot, start Kirk, and have Mike come off the bench. To my eyes, the offense looks "clunky" with no true PG on the floor, especially when you're diminishing your best shooting threat by having him trigger the offense.
But in Saul's offense the PG only really is playing PG bringing it up the court. After we get into the half-court set the positions aren't nearly has important. The offense is designed on quick ball movement with good passers all over the floor. It worked that way two years ago but I thought Jaaron got too dribble happy last year. I don't see Dartis trying to dribble the air out of the ball this year so the offense will be more like the true Saul-ball. I only saw the highlights posted here and some of the comments so obviously not going with a full picture but if Mickle is a good passer out of the post Dartis might have a huge year.
Really if you think about it, the team is almost designed to have five players who have the skill set of a small forward. No true point, no true center. Just five guys who can all dribble, pass, shoot and defend.
That's a good point. While true, I still think every team has to have 1 or 2 guys who are, as Saul calls it, the "Alpha Dog".
I agree. I feel like in late shot clock or end of half/game situations, we know who has the ball and is going to make something happen. It's not necessarily knowing who is going to take a shot in that situation, but who is going to make that shot opportunity happen. With PG by committee, I'm not sure we know that.
I would think in a "must make" situation it will be a two-man game with Dartis and Carter.
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100%Cat
11/8/2017 8:26 AM
bn9 wrote:expand_more
I don't know about anyone else, maybe I'm alone in this belief, but I feel like having Dartis play the PG role diminishes his impact on the offensive end. He's a great catch and shoot guy from deep. It's tough to do that when you're the guy expected to run the offense, or at least it seems that way. I'd much rather see him play the SG spot, start Kirk, and have Mike come off the bench. To my eyes, the offense looks "clunky" with no true PG on the floor, especially when you're diminishing your best shooting threat by having him trigger the offense.
But in Saul's offense the PG only really is playing PG bringing it up the court. After we get into the half-court set the positions aren't nearly has important. The offense is designed on quick ball movement with good passers all over the floor. It worked that way two years ago but I thought Jaaron got too dribble happy last year. I don't see Dartis trying to dribble the air out of the ball this year so the offense will be more like the true Saul-ball. I only saw the highlights posted here and some of the comments so obviously not going with a full picture but if Mickle is a good passer out of the post Dartis might have a huge year.
Really if you think about it, the team is almost designed to have five players who have the skill set of a small forward. No true point, no true center. Just five guys who can all dribble, pass, shoot and defend.
That's a good point. While true, I still think every team has to have 1 or 2 guys who are, as Saul calls it, the "Alpha Dog".
I agree. I feel like in late shot clock or end of half/game situations, we know who has the ball and is going to make something happen. It's not necessarily knowing who is going to take a shot in that situation, but who is going to make that shot opportunity happen. With PG by committee, I'm not sure we know that.
I would think in a "must make" situation it will be a two-man game with Dartis and Carter.
But that's my point about Dartis having a heavy PG-type role. He's the best spot up shooter on the team, and in that situation (two man game with him and Carter), he's not a threat to spot up and shoot. With an actual PG on the floor, whoever it is, he's the trigger man and you have Carter in the paint and Jordy on the wing. Two weapons instead of one.

Obviously I'm not a basketball savant, but this is what I see with my eyes. When Jaaron sat last year and Dartis ran the point, I thought he was far less effective in his time on the floor. It's not playing to his strengths, in my (probably wrong) opinion.
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OUVan
11/8/2017 10:04 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
But that's my point about Dartis having a heavy PG-type role. He's the best spot up shooter on the team, and in that situation (two man game with him and Carter), he's not a threat to spot up and shoot. With an actual PG on the floor, whoever it is, he's the trigger man and you have Carter in the paint and Jordy on the wing. Two weapons instead of one.

Obviously I'm not a basketball savant, but this is what I see with my eyes. When Jaaron sat last year and Dartis ran the point, I thought he was far less effective in his time on the floor. It's not playing to his strengths, in my (probably wrong) opinion.
Look at our huge game winning shots (Freeman, Kaminski, Stevie Taylor, Ndour, Kellogg, etc.) over the last few years. It was always someone different. Personally, I abhor the "I want the ball in my hands" mentality. I would much rather see Jason Carter get the ball down low and pass out of the double team to an open player than see him force it up because he's "the man." We don't need "the man" we need "the extra pass" IMO.
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100%Cat
11/8/2017 10:45 AM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
But that's my point about Dartis having a heavy PG-type role. He's the best spot up shooter on the team, and in that situation (two man game with him and Carter), he's not a threat to spot up and shoot. With an actual PG on the floor, whoever it is, he's the trigger man and you have Carter in the paint and Jordy on the wing. Two weapons instead of one.

Obviously I'm not a basketball savant, but this is what I see with my eyes. When Jaaron sat last year and Dartis ran the point, I thought he was far less effective in his time on the floor. It's not playing to his strengths, in my (probably wrong) opinion.
Look at our huge game winning shots (Freeman, Kaminski, Stevie Taylor, Ndour, Kellogg, etc.) over the last few years. It was always someone different. Personally, I abhor the "I want the ball in my hands" mentality. I would much rather see Jason Carter get the ball down low and pass out of the double team to an open player than see him force it up because he's "the man." We don't need "the man" we need "the extra pass" IMO.
I think you've misunderstood me. I don't mean we need one ball dominant guy controlling late situations to only score for himself. What I mean is have somebody who you know is going to initiate the sequence, who is going to get others the shot in that situation. By having Dartis as the guy with the ball in his hands in that situation playing a PG role, you're (in my opinion) sticking the proverbial square peg in the round hole. You're not playing to his strengths. He's not a slasher, not an at the rim kind of guy, he's a great 3-point shooter. In that situation, we likely wouldn't want Jason Carter at NBA three point depth or Jordan Dartis posting up among the trees. It's not playing to their strengths. With a true PG on the floor to get others involved, Jordan Dartis can stretch the defense with his range while having Jason Carter on the block. Not one or the other, have both as options for the PG to find.

Is this making any sense or have I lost it completely? To me, if there's no PG on the floor, somebody is playing out of position to assume that role.
Last Edited: 11/8/2017 10:47:16 AM by 100%Cat
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OUVan
11/8/2017 10:58 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
I think you've misunderstood me. I don't mean we need one ball dominant guy controlling late situations to only score for himself. What I mean is have somebody who you know is going to initiate the sequence, who is going to get others the shot in that situation. By having Dartis as the guy with the ball in his hands in that situation playing a PG role, you're (in my opinion) sticking the proverbial square peg in the round hole. You're not playing to his strengths. He's not a slasher, not an at the rim kind of guy, he's a great 3-point shooter. In that situation, we likely wouldn't want Jason Carter at NBA three point depth or Jordan Dartis posting up among the trees. It's not playing to their strengths. With a true PG on the floor to get others involved, Jordan Dartis can stretch the defense with his range while having Jason Carter on the block. Not one or the other, have both as options for the PG to find.

Is this making any sense or have I lost it completely? To me, if there's no PG on the floor, somebody is playing out of position to assume that role.
It does make sense but I think we will have enough good passers on the floor that Dartis won't need to create everything. You don't need to have a guy who can completely break down a defense to set up a good shot. Good passing and good screens will get Dartis his shot. The PG only needs one or two dribbles to make the defense adjust enough that good passing can break it down. This is all predicated on the notion that the players you have on the court have good court vision and will move the ball quickly. All it takes is one guy to muck it up by hesitating though (see the Bean Effect).
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GoCats105
11/8/2017 11:56 AM
100%Cat wrote:expand_more
But that's my point about Dartis having a heavy PG-type role. He's the best spot up shooter on the team, and in that situation (two man game with him and Carter), he's not a threat to spot up and shoot. With an actual PG on the floor, whoever it is, he's the trigger man and you have Carter in the paint and Jordy on the wing. Two weapons instead of one.

Obviously I'm not a basketball savant, but this is what I see with my eyes. When Jaaron sat last year and Dartis ran the point, I thought he was far less effective in his time on the floor. It's not playing to his strengths, in my (probably wrong) opinion.
Look at our huge game winning shots (Freeman, Kaminski, Stevie Taylor, Ndour, Kellogg, etc.) over the last few years. It was always someone different. Personally, I abhor the "I want the ball in my hands" mentality. I would much rather see Jason Carter get the ball down low and pass out of the double team to an open player than see him force it up because he's "the man." We don't need "the man" we need "the extra pass" IMO.
I think you've misunderstood me. I don't mean we need one ball dominant guy controlling late situations to only score for himself. What I mean is have somebody who you know is going to initiate the sequence, who is going to get others the shot in that situation. By having Dartis as the guy with the ball in his hands in that situation playing a PG role, you're (in my opinion) sticking the proverbial square peg in the round hole. You're not playing to his strengths. He's not a slasher, not an at the rim kind of guy, he's a great 3-point shooter. In that situation, we likely wouldn't want Jason Carter at NBA three point depth or Jordan Dartis posting up among the trees. It's not playing to their strengths. With a true PG on the floor to get others involved, Jordan Dartis can stretch the defense with his range while having Jason Carter on the block. Not one or the other, have both as options for the PG to find.

Is this making any sense or have I lost it completely? To me, if there's no PG on the floor, somebody is playing out of position to assume that role.
I actually wouldn't mind having Jason initiate the offense late in the game in a point-forward role. Have someone bring the ball down the floor and get it to him at the top of the key or foul line, and let him create. He's got good enough handles and court vision to make something happen if he cant get a shot off. Plus, his defender isn't going to be used to him doing that. It would certainly make the defense think twice about what to do.
Last Edited: 11/8/2017 11:56:55 AM by GoCats105
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bornacatfan
11/8/2017 5:26 PM
OUVan wrote:expand_more
But that's my point about Dartis having a heavy PG-type role. He's the best spot up shooter on the team, and in that situation (two man game with him and Carter), he's not a threat to spot up and shoot. With an actual PG on the floor, whoever it is, he's the trigger man and you have Carter in the paint and Jordy on the wing. Two weapons instead of one.

Obviously I'm not a basketball savant, but this is what I see with my eyes. When Jaaron sat last year and Dartis ran the point, I thought he was far less effective in his time on the floor. It's not playing to his strengths, in my (probably wrong) opinion.
Look at our huge game winning shots (Freeman, Kaminski, Stevie Taylor, Ndour, Kellogg, etc.) over the last few years. It was always someone different. Personally, I abhor the "I want the ball in my hands" mentality. I would much rather see Jason Carter get the ball down low and pass out of the double team to an open player than see him force it up because he's "the man." We don't need "the man" we need "the extra pass" IMO.
I think that is the essence of this team. More ball movement and ample abilities where anyone can be confident to make a shot off the enhanced movement.

I do not think there will be a specific starting five if this competition continues. I think it will be based team by team on matchups and needs.
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RSBobcat
11/8/2017 11:53 PM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
But that's my point about Dartis having a heavy PG-type role. He's the best spot up shooter on the team, and in that situation (two man game with him and Carter), he's not a threat to spot up and shoot. With an actual PG on the floor, whoever it is, he's the trigger man and you have Carter in the paint and Jordy on the wing. Two weapons instead of one.

Obviously I'm not a basketball savant, but this is what I see with my eyes. When Jaaron sat last year and Dartis ran the point, I thought he was far less effective in his time on the floor. It's not playing to his strengths, in my (probably wrong) opinion.
Look at our huge game winning shots (Freeman, Kaminski, Stevie Taylor, Ndour, Kellogg, etc.) over the last few years. It was always someone different. Personally, I abhor the "I want the ball in my hands" mentality. I would much rather see Jason Carter get the ball down low and pass out of the double team to an open player than see him force it up because he's "the man." We don't need "the man" we need "the extra pass" IMO.
I think that is the essence of this team. More ball movement and ample abilities where anyone can be confident to make a shot off the enhanced movement.

I do not think there will be a specific starting five if this competition continues. I think it will be based team by team on matchups and needs.
Agree - And that makes us Real hard to pre-game or in-game plan against
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