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Ohio Basketball Topic
Topic: Disappointed, but encouraged by the Maryland loss
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Alan Swank
12/8/2017 5:51 PM
FlashGary wrote:expand_more
My take is this program has been pretty chaotic for the past 5 years. Transfers, coaching changes and injuries have plagued it.
Is it reasonable to think we get stabilized after this year?
Good take^^^. This program should never accept not going to an NCAA Tourney over a 5 year stretch. The next 16 months are very important for Saul to really start showing something. When you are the highest paid coach in the league, you better at least start sniffing MAC Tournament championship games. Still waiting for Saul to have his "Ball State over Notre Dame moment". I view it as DiamondCat...how can anyone take something positive away from the Maryland game? That was a big disappointment.
It's interesting that ytown brought that up, because since Saul has been in Athens we've not really seen what he can totally do with a (full) roster of his liking, save for maybe Year 2

Year 1: The Bean and Mo show

Year 2: Turn it around and see promise, lose in MAC semis, Campbell wins POTY.

Year 3: Campbell goes down with injury, team has to re-work itself and does pretty well considering the adversity, loses in the MAC semis.

Year 4: Injuries to Carter, BVP and Gareri forces small ball early on...
Saw someone on facebook say that Saul's seat should get warmer. For as much bad luck as he's faced, to get to the semis in year 2 (young team took its early lumps) and year 3, I think he's doing a commendable job. I wonder some if there's something about his style that's a turnoff to players because he couldn't retain any of the JC recruits and guys like Ryan Taylor and Rodney Culver left. Of the last three coaches we've had, I consider Saul to be the best teacher of basketball tactics/philosophy, Groce the best game prep/game manager, and JC the best recruiter.
JC the best recruiter? I'm interested to see your reasons for that. I personally don't know who we can say best recruiter was.

I don't know who the best recruiter is. But I'll say this: Jim Christian was able to get quality big man recruits the likes of Maurice Ndour and Tony Campbell to come to Athens. Coach Phillips has brought in a lot of quality perimeter recruits, but won't Nathan Springs be the first recruit 6-10 or taller in coach Phillips' tenure?
Being a great recruiter is meaningless if you can't coach the team to a championship once in awhile. Danny was probably the best we had in both departments since Jim Snyder days.
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RSBobcat
12/9/2017 12:59 AM
bornacatfan wrote:expand_more
I love Zach Butler's game. I think he'll be absolutely outstanding in time.
I agree. He should have had a number of assists last night and is a true PG which we need. Kirk has a skillset we really need as well but he just doesn't have a true PG mindset.
I am just the opposite IMHO. Butler has been a head down, score first player. Seeing the floor or the spacing/players has been sorely lacking. Facilitate has not been part of the conversation. I was just amazed when he went into the key 2nd half and actually PASSED the ball. In my eyes Kirk has kicked out and kept the ball hot consistently. Still a work in progress but were I one of the other 4 on the floor presently I think I might actually have my hands up looking for a pass with Number 4. Just my take. I think they both have good skills (basketball and PG). How they choose to use and develope them is to be seen. One thing for sure....they could both use some work on shot mechanics. When the student is ready.....
AGREE
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FlashGary
12/9/2017 1:05 AM
Alan Swank wrote:expand_more
My take is this program has been pretty chaotic for the past 5 years. Transfers, coaching changes and injuries have plagued it.
Is it reasonable to think we get stabilized after this year?
Good take^^^. This program should never accept not going to an NCAA Tourney over a 5 year stretch. The next 16 months are very important for Saul to really start showing something. When you are the highest paid coach in the league, you better at least start sniffing MAC Tournament championship games. Still waiting for Saul to have his "Ball State over Notre Dame moment". I view it as DiamondCat...how can anyone take something positive away from the Maryland game? That was a big disappointment.
It's interesting that ytown brought that up, because since Saul has been in Athens we've not really seen what he can totally do with a (full) roster of his liking, save for maybe Year 2

Year 1: The Bean and Mo show

Year 2: Turn it around and see promise, lose in MAC semis, Campbell wins POTY.

Year 3: Campbell goes down with injury, team has to re-work itself and does pretty well considering the adversity, loses in the MAC semis.

Year 4: Injuries to Carter, BVP and Gareri forces small ball early on...
Saw someone on facebook say that Saul's seat should get warmer. For as much bad luck as he's faced, to get to the semis in year 2 (young team took its early lumps) and year 3, I think he's doing a commendable job. I wonder some if there's something about his style that's a turnoff to players because he couldn't retain any of the JC recruits and guys like Ryan Taylor and Rodney Culver left. Of the last three coaches we've had, I consider Saul to be the best teacher of basketball tactics/philosophy, Groce the best game prep/game manager, and JC the best recruiter.
JC the best recruiter? I'm interested to see your reasons for that. I personally don't know who we can say best recruiter was.

I don't know who the best recruiter is. But I'll say this: Jim Christian was able to get quality big man recruits the likes of Maurice Ndour and Tony Campbell to come to Athens. Coach Phillips has brought in a lot of quality perimeter recruits, but won't Nathan Springs be the first recruit 6-10 or taller in coach Phillips' tenure?
Being a great recruiter is meaningless if you can't coach the team to a championship once in awhile. Danny was probably the best we had in both departments since Jim Snyder days.

Danny Nee had a lot going for him personally. Also, he had a great recruiter in Fran Fraschilla, currently scouting European pro prospects for ESPN, I believe. Fran and I spoke regularly back then and I met up with him on several recruiting trips. I'll never forget he told me Ohio landed a kid who flew totally under the radar for the early signing period. I followed the kid's progress all year and got a little bit concerned when some big schools tried to steal him after he averaged over 35 points per game. I met Fran to watch this kid personally at a post season all-star game in Canton and I couldn't believe what I saw. I said, "This guy REALLY is coming to Athens?" His unlimited range and ability to pop off of screens reminded me of a 6-3, right-handed version of Chris Mullin. The guy? Dave Jamerson. Just reminiscing.
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OU SLAM
12/9/2017 7:16 AM
Our team was totally out matched and several players and coaching the game was exposed. We need to play aggressive on both ends of the floor every night. Injuries will come on all teams. It’s next man up. Saul rotation is fixated on 7-8 players only and he fails to pull a player out of the game when he clearly see they can not hang with an athletic player. Know your personnel. We lacked length and athleticism on the floor against Maryland. I don’t see the grit on the court, some players look passive. We need to be more aggressive, put a body on somebody, better ball movement as this keeps all players actively involved in the game.
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Joe McKinley
12/9/2017 8:52 AM
FlashGary wrote:expand_more
My take is this program has been pretty chaotic for the past 5 years. Transfers, coaching changes and injuries have plagued it.
Is it reasonable to think we get stabilized after this year?
Good take^^^. This program should never accept not going to an NCAA Tourney over a 5 year stretch. The next 16 months are very important for Saul to really start showing something. When you are the highest paid coach in the league, you better at least start sniffing MAC Tournament championship games. Still waiting for Saul to have his "Ball State over Notre Dame moment". I view it as DiamondCat...how can anyone take something positive away from the Maryland game? That was a big disappointment.
It's interesting that ytown brought that up, because since Saul has been in Athens we've not really seen what he can totally do with a (full) roster of his liking, save for maybe Year 2

Year 1: The Bean and Mo show

Year 2: Turn it around and see promise, lose in MAC semis, Campbell wins POTY.

Year 3: Campbell goes down with injury, team has to re-work itself and does pretty well considering the adversity, loses in the MAC semis.

Year 4: Injuries to Carter, BVP and Gareri forces small ball early on...
Saw someone on facebook say that Saul's seat should get warmer. For as much bad luck as he's faced, to get to the semis in year 2 (young team took its early lumps) and year 3, I think he's doing a commendable job. I wonder some if there's something about his style that's a turnoff to players because he couldn't retain any of the JC recruits and guys like Ryan Taylor and Rodney Culver left. Of the last three coaches we've had, I consider Saul to be the best teacher of basketball tactics/philosophy, Groce the best game prep/game manager, and JC the best recruiter.
JC the best recruiter? I'm interested to see your reasons for that. I personally don't know who we can say best recruiter was.

I don't know who the best recruiter is. But I'll say this: Jim Christian was able to get quality big man recruits the likes of Maurice Ndour and Tony Campbell to come to Athens. Coach Phillips has brought in a lot of quality perimeter recruits, but won't Nathan Springs be the first recruit 6-10 or taller in coach Phillips' tenure?
Being a great recruiter is meaningless if you can't coach the team to a championship once in awhile. Danny was probably the best we had in both departments since Jim Snyder days.

Danny Nee had a lot going for him personally. Also, he had a great recruiter in Fran Fraschilla, currently scouting European pro prospects for ESPN, I believe. Fran and I spoke regularly back then and I met up with him on several recruiting trips. I'll never forget he told me Ohio landed a kid who flew totally under the radar for the early signing period. I followed the kid's progress all year and got a little bit concerned when some big schools tried to steal him after he averaged over 35 points per game. I met Fran to watch this kid personally at a post season all-star game in Canton and I couldn't believe what I saw. I said, "This guy REALLY is coming to Athens?" His unlimited range and ability to pop off of screens reminded me of a 6-3, right-handed version of Chris Mullin. The guy? Dave Jamerson. Just reminiscing.
One of my good buddies here in Columbus -- who later went on to start/captain at North Carolina-Wilmington -- played with Dave on Team Ohio with Jerome Lane. He said that he loved playing with Dave because his release was so quick. It gave my buddy more opportunities for assists and put so much pressure on the defense that it opened up other things. He compared Dave's release to Steve Alford's and said it was a bit better. He had the opportunity to guard Alford in college and said he needed a full body ice bath after running into so many screens during the game.
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FearLeon
12/9/2017 9:03 AM
OU SLAM wrote:expand_more
Our team was totally out matched and several players and coaching the game was exposed. We need to play aggressive on both ends of the floor every night. Injuries will come on all teams. It’s next man up. Saul rotation is fixated on 7-8 players only and he fails to pull a player out of the game when he clearly see they can not hang with an athletic player. Know your personnel. We lacked length and athleticism on the floor against Maryland. I don’t see the grit on the court, some players look passive. We need to be more aggressive, put a body on somebody, better ball movement as this keeps all players actively involved in the game.
This^^^^. Nearly 3 1/2 years in and I think more people on this board are getting smarter and have questions about #SaulBall. Really is going to be an interesting next 16 months for Ohio hoops and the #SaulBallEra.
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GraffZ06
12/9/2017 9:26 AM
RSBobcat wrote:expand_more
I love Zach Butler's game. I think he'll be absolutely outstanding in time.
I agree. He should have had a number of assists last night and is a true PG which we need. Kirk has a skillset we really need as well but he just doesn't have a true PG mindset.
I am just the opposite IMHO. Butler has been a head down, score first player. Seeing the floor or the spacing/players has been sorely lacking. Facilitate has not been part of the conversation. I was just amazed when he went into the key 2nd half and actually PASSED the ball. In my eyes Kirk has kicked out and kept the ball hot consistently. Still a work in progress but were I one of the other 4 on the floor presently I think I might actually have my hands up looking for a pass with Number 4. Just my take. I think they both have good skills (basketball and PG). How they choose to use and develope them is to be seen. One thing for sure....they could both use some work on shot mechanics. When the student is ready.....

AGREE
I'm with Borna here. I like both of our freshmen, but Kirk has been a better facilitator at PG to date. Doesn't mean it will always be that way. Stats don't always tell the whole picture but -

Kirk in 241 minutes : 90 FGA, 27 AST, 28 TO.
Butler in 115 minutes : 29 FGA, 3 AST, 10 TO.

Kirk 14.938 FGA/40 minutes
Butler 10.087 FGA/40 minutes

So Kirk does shoot it more frequently than Butler - but

Kirk 4.481 AST/40 minutes
Butler 1.043 AST/40 minutes (OUCH!) - though Kirk's isn't sparkly either.

Kirk 0.964 AST/TO ratio (Again not great, but for a true freshmen it's okay as long as it improves)
Butler 0.300 AST/TO ratio (OUCH!)

I know we're still in small sample size territory but I don't know how you can call a guy averaging barely 1 assist per 40 minutes and who has a 0.3 assist to turnover ratio the "true PG". Even if he doesn't shoot as often.
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bigtillyoopsupsideurhead
12/9/2017 11:41 AM
FearLeon wrote:expand_more
Our team was totally out matched and several players and coaching the game was exposed. We need to play aggressive on both ends of the floor every night. Injuries will come on all teams. It’s next man up. Saul rotation is fixated on 7-8 players only and he fails to pull a player out of the game when he clearly see they can not hang with an athletic player. Know your personnel. We lacked length and athleticism on the floor against Maryland. I don’t see the grit on the court, some players look passive. We need to be more aggressive, put a body on somebody, better ball movement as this keeps all players actively involved in the game.
This^^^^. Nearly 3 1/2 years in and I think more people on this board are getting smarter and have questions about #SaulBall. Really is going to be an interesting next 16 months for Ohio hoops and the #SaulBallEra.
I am all for people people skeptical of the coaching situation and wanting more, but this is such a shallow response.

Saul is not fixated on a 7-8 man rotation, all our other scholarship players are hurt. There is literally just one scholarship player not in the rotation right now and that is Ellis Dozier. It's not like Saul is keeping guys on the bench for no reason. Who exactly is Saul supposed to sub in when one of our other players "can't hang".

I didn't see passive. I didn't see a lack of grit. I just saw a team undermanned to handle a big and athletic team. Does our team lack grit because they can't stop a 7'1 guy? I don't think so. Maryland was just a bad matchup for us.
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